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tomatriedes that isn't true at all.
You are basing that off the fact that all you've ever seen is the SC2 Nick featuring Dan.
There was a time when Nick was highly encouraged to do this. Heck, our community members paid for his original flight to Korea based off his WCG performance. Wheat had zero knowledge of BW and Nick being the nice guy he is realized this and asked if Wheat if he wanted him to help out. It was a breath of fresh air to have actual English commentary. A WCG USA first.
Now fast forward to the GOM Classic, bring in lilsusie and all that jazz. Viola. Nick was carrying the workload unlike now where he's Artosis' lacky and plays a certain role in the cast. You'll notice he opens up more given the circumstance as he has looked at recent BW games for TV as well.
It really comes down to the role he believes he has in the cast and what he wants to fill.
He's one of those guys who could definitely step it up a notch given the opportunity but like I said he's very comfortable with Dan calling the shots.
The thing going for guys like Dan, Sean, Nick, insert caster is what you touched upon. Likeability and familiarity.
There is nothing wrong with having a comfort zone, but I would love to see them switch it up sometime. Right now, everyone is following this stupid template when it comes to casting or role they feel like they have to fill.
My message is to make it your own. Have fun with it and keep learning.
I'd give Nick three words: back to basics.
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On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote:
I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I usually dont agree with a lot of things you say, but this is completely true. Casters don't really make that much money and they work extremely hard. Just setting up your own show, writing up articles, answering questions all take a crap load of time. Day 9 for example works his ass off bringing enthusiasm (you do to orb, when you cast) , dedication, insight, plus various other things that are great.
Personally I think good casters (day 9, orb, tastetosis, etc) are a big reason why watching pro sc2 is so entertaining. ; Why doesn't everyone do it If you can make ridiculous amounts of money doing it without lifting a finger? Why wouldnt people that dont even have the slightest enjoyment esports be inflating the scene, especially in this economy? It always easier to sit back and say things then it actually is to do them.
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I can understand ClouD's reasoning. From his point of view, there are a lot of hard-working players that don't get the name-recognition they deserve, while mediocre casters get the limelight and (we assume) the money.
At the same time, he needs to recognize that SC2 is still (believe it or not) at it's infancy stages, and 'big name' casters help bring in the viewers, the steam numbers, and the dollars. I personally didn't get into SC2 to watch Idra or Naniwa or Thorzain. I got into SC2 because I watched Klazart and Cholera and Diggity killing SC:BW casts on youtube, and they introduced me to HD and Husky, who introduced me to Day[9] and PsyStarcraft, who introduced me to everyone else. A POPULAR and CHARISMATIC caster can bring in more viewers, which improves sponsorship, which brings in more dollars to spread around the SC2 scene all-around. While we may want to weed out the mediocre casting talent as SC2 reaches it's final stage, we're still (at least) 2 expansions away, and I've found the casting so far to be both entertaining and informative. While I'll always agree that players should get more recognition, money, and fame, I'm not sure it's fair to blame casters for any discrepancy, either perceived or real.
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I have to say, that for me personally, it is a little hard to accept some of the things Cloud said, because they seem overly harsh to some of the great personalities I've come to love in the past 1,5 years in this scene I've been following the scene... I was actually raging pretty hard at some of the stuff he said. But then again, Cloud was actually making some pretty good points, just his way of bringing them across may have upset some people. (calling some of the casters "stupid" for example) On the other hand, I guess that's what Cloud is known (and liked) for aswell.
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On May 01 2012 23:48 Silo Phylumists wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 23:44 bmml wrote:On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. Do you? and really do they? Think they mentioned it a couple of times on the GSL so.... They do work long hours and try to improve their cast. So let's not have them under appriciated.
ClouD doesn't say they dont deserve appreciation. But what's important is that players currently get less appreciation for doing a lot more work (in most cases). He also believes casters should invest way more time in trying to understand the game at the highest level, and therefor they also need to practise like the pro's to be able to understand the game fully.
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On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
Did you watch his stream lately?
He is not even top master.
A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
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Instead of pissing on the casters he should re-think the way tournaments are structured right now. A lot of times certain players that need not be named, are invited just because of their reputation/fanbase but not neccessarily skill. Which means the hard working, not so known pros tend to have to go through open qualifiers which are usually hard to beat.
And most casters actually cast more than the majority of known foreigners play, which is sad in a way.
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On May 02 2012 15:44 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. Did you watch his stream lately? He is not even top master. A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
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I dont like when someones mouth is bigger or far bigger than himself..
Eventho he might has some points about players too, TLO or whoever he called, he is in no position to say such a thing. I dont feel TLO is too great but hes better than me, thats why i dont talk shit about him. Didnt TLO "won" more money than you from tournements and achieved more than you?
The beta cheesing argument isnt comming from nowhere but all there is too me is just the feeling " why did i slack to that time and didnt do what TLO did at that time ", while on the other hand anyone who knows your play could claim your playing the same boring nogasFE since years which isnt even your own style, correct me if im wrong i think its thorzains bo u atleast play in tvp, without much of a success ( also here: Correct me if im wrong but with less success than TLO [after switching races multiple times] [[with far more practicetime]] ).
I dont have anything against ClouD but while hes on stream discussing with me that he might thinks i streamcheated someone because he saw the game and without beeing asked telling me and his viewers 2 times that he doesnt think im a good player on his stream just makes me "hmm why is there a reason to tell me".
Other than that i think he got a point with casters, while it got mentioned before by Grubby yesterday, the problem arent Casters getting too much instead its Players getting too little for their effort while investing alot ( Time/effort/some a big part of their life ).
But there are also players who get too much salary, recognition or streamviewers for what they do eventho the Money for most is far less in comparison to casters, it also applies the other way around.
My oppinion on that Casterthingy is just, people getting entertained or hyped about a Person wayyy to easy, i dont even like speaking this out because in the end, streaming getting so popular and people enjoying it so much to view their own beloved caster/player on daily basis makes it easier for us all, easier for many players and casters to have another income source.
But i just feel that way, there are some players and caster, around 10 for me where i feel "Why do people watch him, he isnt even good or he isnt even funny". But i guess its just my problem, in the end their 1-5k viewers like them and i dont, their viewers watch them and i dont so it must be having a different view on things.
Same as i like to watch WWE as many other people around the world so they get their viewers while many people just say its fake and there is nothing more to it and they dont get it why your watch it.
So in the end, beeing a player who focusses on winning stuff is just a harder way to make money then beeing a caster who focusses on entertaining people. I dont watch many streams only a few and mostly i let them run during i practise and switch in whenever i want but i also think for viewers its easier to choose from 5 Casters instead from 20 Players who they like and its easier to say " Kas always won in ladder i was learning so much, today he lost 5games in a row while i watched so im bored so i turn off the stream " instead of " Caster X isnt as entertaining today im gonna turn off the stream ".
While everyone is different and likes different types of guys, i think its almost undeniable that Artosis is the greatest SC2 caster and sets atleast for our Communtiy the highest standards of Casting both analytical and entertainmentwise. God maybe its just me but watching him and ONLY tasteless together is just pure amusement. They made me laughing out loud sometimes infront of my computer which i rarely do when im alone, there arent many good/funny movies or series that gets me to that point of really laughing instead of giggling when watching them alone. So maybe this is a reason why Cloud, but maybe especially feel only a few Casters are good and only Tastosis is great.
Analyticly Casters could and should improve alot that true, but i think its ok if they say in advance, Players X gameplan from now could be going banshee or raven instead of misscalling gamesituations/fights or bad observing. I just hate it that so many casters and observers miss dropps or missread the game totally and call it. So there some casters that kinda dropp their false knowledge giving their Viewers wrong reads on how the game is going, while they are still in the state of analytical knowledge where they should sometimes just give their viewers a statement where they could choose from. Maybe its just my feeling too but whenever i see the same casters dropp their knowledge and predict almost the whole opposite outcome of a battle or game i feel like "mehhh".
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On May 02 2012 16:01 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 15:44 TanTzoR wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. Did you watch his stream lately? He is not even top master. A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast. A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
If your not a "natural" Master.. Which means that with some effort you would be high Master.. You shouldn't cast... at least not solo.
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Aside from the content some well-intentioned suggestions for future vlogs:
- Make yourself a short script with the points you want to convey.
- If you want to claim sth. prepare some references or evidence to back it up.
- If you feel like something slipped out of your mouth, that could be interpreted wrong, do another take.
- Try to get to the point as precisely as possible and avoid rambling and ranting.
- Don't be tired; do videos when you are at full mental capacity.
- Review the video before releasing it to check how you come across.
A little more effort like this, and your vlogs will be neat, short and precise. May spare you some explanation-posts in the future.
I think stuff like this just hurts your own reputation, whether or not your arguments are legit.
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On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote:
I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
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I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer!
Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer?
... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
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Soccer is a real sport. SC2 is not. You really can't compare the two.
If it's more lucrative to be a caster, and you're in it for the money, then be a caster. If you don't have the skillset to be a caster, be a player. Right now it's easier to be a pro player than a pro caster. Simple economics.
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I totally agree that the casters have sooooooooo much improvement needed to become more professional. A very small percentage of them actually bother to research what is happening in the sc2 scene and have little knowledge about the players they are casting, their favorite matchups, etc etc. Apollo is one of the very few exceptions, he does a lot of research and knows a lot about payers from all scenes and it shows when he casts as he delivers a real professional cast. It just seems lazy to me that so many of them, including the highest profile casters of all, really don't know what's going on in the scene, it should be fairly standard.
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Canada1637 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote:
I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer!
Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer?
... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
not easy ;(, getting there!
Also, ClouD, you can say Orb is a bad caster all you want, its your opinion, but saying his casting is insincere is just incorrect.
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Except for his comments on Orb and Painuser, I actually agree with most of Clouds points.
Day9 is a horrible caster imo. I think he is the one of the funniest and most awesome personalities in the scene, but I absolutely hate his casting.
Excellent input from Cloud, the people mentioned shouldn't take it personally.
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Cloud, are you completely out of your mind? You are digging your own grave...
You insult ppl that actually matter to a lot other ppl, you act as if you are better than (both of) them.
What you do is only hurting YOURSELF.
The things you say here are not things you should say in public, these are thoughts to be only shared with friends. How can somebody post them on a huge forum? Not a wise decision.
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On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote:
I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer!
Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer?
... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
Haha good one! But on topic, few mlgs ago tasteless was casting with Rob Simpson and Tasteless was doing the observing (Adebisi took over the next day as a dedicated observer, wonder why?). I have to say that was one of the worst pro-level casting+observing i have ever seen. Neither of them had any idea what was going on in the game, hatcheries got sniped while tasteless was playing with the camera zooming some random marine and telling some random jokes "look this marine is waiving his hands". It was a total farce. But guess what? In the livethread people where laughing like crazy and called the casting awesome. It was absolutely horrible casting, but done by a fan favorite so it was awesome. If someone like HD had done that, people would have ripped him a new asshole (like painuser said).
Yes Cloud i agree, that is bad casting (another example is day9 casting live and 20% of his casting consisting of yelling "OH NO"). But if that is what the people want and they bring viewers, so be it. Pay the casters their money
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On May 02 2012 16:01 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 15:44 TanTzoR wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. Did you watch his stream lately? He is not even top master. A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast. A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
No idea. It's funny because the majority of these people saying "omg caster must be GM to know anythign!!" are probably diamond and below. Their GM level analysis would be wasted on these same people who think they know what they want.
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EPT
