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On May 02 2012 22:33 SecondSandwich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote:ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make. 1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges. 2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works. 3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count. 4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail! Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary. You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all. Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters. 5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore. According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed. Anyway, that's how I see it  This post is right on, IMO. One aspect that I want to latch onto quickly is that people are comparing successful casters (casters who already 'won' to use the words of the post) to all progamers. To flip this the other way around, it would be like comparing the top 8 at the GSL to casters that have finally gotten 300 subscribers on their youtube channel and complaining that the players are making too much money. This doesn't make sense. If you begin to consider all of the casters who have struggled to get any attention at all, it may seem a little more balanced.
Well his point is however that these casters that have already 'won' are just kinda set for life. A lot/most seem to do very minimal work in keeping up to date with current trends, metagame and build orders.
I mean if you compare it to players that have already 'won', they are most certainly not set for life, the best example is probably Jinro, which has been working his ass off for how long exactly? but is still having really hard time keeping up with the rest of the players.
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He has a very good point when it comes to the fact that a lot of pro gamers are so unkown, despite being pretty good.
In relative comparison, a caster does not have to be as fluent and/or skillful as the player in order to be succesful in the scene.
Yes it takes a long time to build up a fanbase, and yes, you need some time to know the game. However, because of the much tougher competition between players as the competition between casters, I can understand that some players can become frustrated. Players like Cloud would highly appreciate to see a caster who at least is equivalent in game-insight.
And I for one wouldn't mind a rise in general game-insight of the casters.
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It actually sounds like ClouD is describing Rotterdam as his ideal caster. Which I'm totally okay with.
TBH, most of our marquis class analytic casters ARE everything he's talking about.
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On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote:
ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1:
The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
What? In general managers work harder than employees. Anyone who says different has either had bad luck with his managers, or is just trying to spread his anti-capitalistic/leftist/whatever worldview.
The point he's trying to make is that with it already being so incredibly hard for a progamer, one would at least expect the casters to do their job properly, he thinks they are not.
2:
Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
k
3:
Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster.
Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
Yet in the end the competition is nowhere near as fierce as in competitive gaming. Casters work together more often than against each other. Want to know why a lot of progamers don't post in strategy forums?
It's not only because of less time to train and having to deal with know-it-all scrubs, it's also because they are in a direct competition with each other, and if the standard build in a match up has a major weakness you know about, awesome! Why the hell would you let everyone know about it?
(slightly OT) The metagame as perceived by the majority of the sc2 community is actually always a bit behind the actual metagame on (high level) ladder (because the pro players are always constantly thinking of how to play in a better fashion).
4:
He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
You're right, but you're disregarding the fact that as a player you invest far more than you ever would as a caster. If you were to take the top ~300 guys of a server (gm/rank isn't accurate), they all have invested thousands and thousands of hours into the game. And yet very few will get a monetary reward out of it. What did the failed casters do; make 5 VODs which nobody liked and then stop? Point being, it's much, much harder for a player than a caster.
What I think cloud means to say is that casters should be critized more for being wrong. He could also just be bitter.
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
I sincerely doubt there are so many people trying to become sc2 casters.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
I agree.
5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore. According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed. Anyway, that's how I see it
I agree to a certain extent. It's impossible for a caster to know more than a real progamer, but that doesn't mean casters shouldn't try to (ala rotterdam).
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On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
Times haven't changed all that much unless you're on certain teams that have good sponsorship and you have a big enough name that they have no other option? ;o
Here's the thing. A lot of the Western players I see wouldn't truly qualify for what I believe a pro gamer represents. They clog other holes that shouldn't translate into an active roster slot. Even though they put the hours in like other athletes it's still amateur competition. Olympians train around the clock. It becomes their job and at the end of the day they get to represent their countries and go for the gold on the biggest stage of amateur sport.
Unlike our corps who receive a golden ticket based off who they are yet it doesn't translate into money, but they receive invites to other am's and competitions other than the Korean events because they don't fit their criterion. Do you see where I'm going with this? It's a time warp all over again.
They might spend a lot of time practicing and training, but they it doesn't translate into success or consistency for many. They're on the team for primarily marketing & brand recognition. Not because of their moderate success which in some cases went over a decade.
They aren't really players but spokespeople or reps.
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I'm pretty sure Apollo knows you can stim units in bunkers.
Carlo Giannacco @ClouDsc2
Thanks to @TypeDBS to make me realize that you can stim units in bunkers after 2 years I play SC2. Good shit son ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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whoops, that was supposed to be an edit.
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Talking about this topic is fine but I think it's unnecessary to call out specific casters and saying they're bad... Unprofessional you might say.
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There is absolutly zero point in looking at how much casters are gaining for the simple reason than that's how business work.
Do players makes enough money? No, probably not, but there is A LOT of competition, there's a shit ton of good players... and seriously, no one will stop or will start following the scene because of a single player. There is so many of them.
It's the exact opposite for casters. There is not that many good casters and they bring way more fans to the scene than players. So many people started to follow the scene just because of Day9, Husky, TB, Apollo... they brought more money and viewer than any players... actually, probably more than every players together.
In life, you don't get money based on your dedication or your efforts, but based of how much money you worth to the people that are paying you. Point is : casters worth more than players to the scene right now. Way more.
And... cutting the salary of casters will never do any good to the scene. Tournaments or teams will not have more money to offer to players this way. And no one will gain anything from it.
ClouD just sound bitter... like always, actually.
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Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices?
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On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
I agree with it conceptually, but if you think about it from the standpoint that only 5-6 casters are on the highest level to perform at the big tournaments they are the only ones making real money. 90% of the players are not on the level to win or even make it to a championship bracket of the biggest tournaments. The highest paid pros are still making good money from winnings (Stephano, GSL winners). If you are incapable of performing and placing at tournaments you shouldn't really be expecting to make that kind of money. Not using you as an example because you do perform well, just my thought on the idea that all pros should get paid well because they Love the game.
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On May 03 2012 00:02 MONXY FIST wrote:
Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices?
Is that first sentence of yours supposed to make sense.
If you're not interested in Clouds talk, then don't listen, but i even doubt that you watched the video, as it is much cooler to just disrespect him anyways.
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On May 02 2012 23:33 Champloo wrote:
I'm pretty sure Apollo knows you can stim units in bunkers.
Carlo Giannacco @ClouDsc2
Thanks to @TypeDBS to make me realize that you can stim units in bunkers after 2 years I play SC2. Good shit son ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lol that's quite funny indeed. You would assume that everybody above gold knows this by now :D
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On May 03 2012 00:13 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 23:33 Champloo wrote:
I'm pretty sure Apollo knows you can stim units in bunkers.
Carlo Giannacco @ClouDsc2
Thanks to @TypeDBS to make me realize that you can stim units in bunkers after 2 years I play SC2. Good shit son ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Lol that's quite funny indeed. You would assume that everybody above gold knows this by now :D
Goody didn't know that Zergs get four larvae from larva inject until last month. He thought it added only one.
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But then, well, that is goody. He has gold player apm ^^?!
jkjk
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I don't agree with Cloud at all. He missed the ball completely. The fans and the watchers are who make Sc2 popular and better by bringing in sponsors. Flash would be completely useless and unimportant if there were nobody to watch it and bring in sponsors. And good casters make games more interesting for viewers and are critical for viewers that are not players. Those will never care about Flash level of mechanics if a good caster cannot explain it to them.
But compared to mainstream sports Sc2 is still poor. I bet Cloud looks at sports like football and tennis when he makes comparison which is not a valid comparison because compared to those sports Sc2 is totally unimportant.
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On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Was just about to type pretty much this.
The idea that a caster enjoys casting 10+ hours a day and tweeting, facebooking, networking nonstop is ludicrous. That's hard friggin work. Sure you can do it with a smile on your face but so can you when training as a pro player.
It's all about the attitude you have towards your job. I hope that this is just a negative day you had mr Cloud because if these thoughts are constantly in your head and venting at others is your approach to the game, then I don't see you ever reaching your full potential.
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On May 03 2012 00:09 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 00:02 MONXY FIST wrote:
Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices? Is that first sentence of yours supposed to make sense. If you're not interested in Clouds talk, then don't listen, but i even doubt that you watched the video, as it is much cooler to just disrespect him anyways.
Of course i watched the video, why else would i comment on it? The first 5 minutes was just cloud bashing people who he thinks are "bad". Of course i also loved the TLO comments. I don't really have an issue with the rest of the video but the part where he talks about the casters specifically was so childish and unprofessional i couldn't take the rest of his video seriously. Its how i expect teenage girls to act not professional gamers.
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whatever the single points and arguments made and how much one agrees with those,
it all comes down to:
meh, meh...these guys make more money than me and that´s unfair.
i feel the same way about dozens of people working at my company.
maybe i´ll make a vlog.
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I feel kind of bad even writing here for the second time because of the not deserved attention this topic is getting. Still, I want to say Cloud is very average player and him saying some casters do not deserve what they are making is just ironic coming from him with his level of play. He thinks he deserves more than casters simply because he know the game more than a caster. This is almost a stupid view. Casters =/= players. It is not the same thing! If you think the input of caster to the community and to the e-sport, you can see why they make more. I find it extremely fair that casters are making more money than players.
If one looks at broodwar scene, I bet no caster is making more than flash why??? because flash's input is much larger than any caster. In sc2, especially in USA, casters such Day9's impact is much more than any other player so they make more. Without HD and Husky's youtube videos I would be here now. So simple. This video is just whining from an average player. I mean he could have easily make the same point for any other occupation who makes more than him and work less than 12 hours a day... geeeeeez.
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EPT
