EPTI'm glad cloud brought this up again, not a baseless whine about money but a spark for debate about what we should expect from casters.
ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation - Page 6
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bmml
United Kingdom962 Posts
I'm glad cloud brought this up again, not a baseless whine about money but a spark for debate about what we should expect from casters. | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
I agree with most points he makes though, as I believe lots of casters are pretty lazy with their time spent learning how the game works and what the metagame is. When was the last time you saw a IPL caster say something like 'this Zerg strategy has started appearing on the ladder recently, in response to the hellion/banshee triple orbital build.' Only Artosis and a few others gives this kind of insight. However, I think the problem isn't that the casters are too popular, its the players deserve more recognition. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I agree that Day9 over-analyzes random plays way too much. I'm sure he would present HuK's 9 gate +1 PvZ as genius and formidable, but the fact is, you most likely can produce the same results with 8 gates and better mechanics, and HuK is doing that by instinct, it's not like he computed that 9 gates are optimal for massing out zealots and stalkers and microing them around, yet Day9 will be able to spend 2 hours praising some random nonsensical elements of the build from like 4 different replays. In his casts he has less time for this, but it still comes out at times, and it may cover for an overall weak sense of what's really happening in a high level SC2 game... I otherwise agree that Day9's fame is well deserved. He did a lot of good to SC2 and still does, and I still think he mostly knows what he's talking about. Also, I was like "wtf he didn't mention BitterdaM?" and then he said that he forgot them as good casters. Tastosis (well, mostly Artosis + anyone does the trick really) and BitterdaM are without contest the 2 best casting combos, ClouD said it well. About the "casters get more than players even though it's undeserved", I don't really know. I still think popular and acclaimed casting figures are necessary for the game to develop as an esport and in an effort to become more mainstream, but it's certain that some players are underrated because they don't get invited in tournaments as much as others and making it into qualifiers is very hard as we all know. The only thing I know is that I would give Artosis a raise (:D). Edit: And agreed on Grubby being an awesome caster, without being a personal fan of his. | ||
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Fake)Plants
United States373 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that. Especially the point he makes that some casters don't seem to actively improve their knowldege of the game. I totally agree with Cloud pointing out the over-analyzation of certain plays in SC2. For instance, when Day[9] first came out with his audio-only podcast series back in BW (I think 2009?), and then the subsequent Daily that would come to define him, you could tell that he was still playing BW at a really high level. I really enjoyed the high level analysis and I ate that content up like crazy. When the Daily switched to SC2 along with myself, I slowly noticed the show becoming catered to newbies. While I have no problem with that personally I do believe it isn't conducive to the improvement of his casting. Mainly, I think he gets the casting jobs due to his notority. And as such, my interest in Day[9]'s show and his commentating has diminished since. But once again, this is just me and my preferences. I'm definitely not saying Day[9] lost the passion, but maybe Cloud has a point that these guys could be doing more for the crazy amount of money they can make casting. I know I would certainly enjoy it. | ||
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Nin-x
17 Posts
At the end of the day, that's what matters and that's where the value is. Players (for the most part) play to win and not to entertain, but the value is in entertainment and no necessarily winning. They put in a lot of time and effort, but I find most don't take it seriously. A quick example: NaNiwa puts in a lot of hard work, but still probe rushed because his match "Didn't Matter". | ||
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thewax
Austria365 Posts
People that work their asses off and deliver results, Huk, Thorzain, Stephano (not even talking about koreans) and so on get the reputation/money that they deserve, but cloud is just some low tier pro who i dont remember seeing go far at any major tournament this year (correct me if im wrong) Edit: and i dont even wanna start on the fact how many people those popular casters brought to the game... | ||
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ChosenBrad1322
United States562 Posts
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game. Their career is not affected by win or loss. That is so far from the truth that I don't even know where to start... You do realize most of the "famous" or "known" casters are in the position that they are in because of how passionate / dedicated they were for many years and weren't making a dime during those times. Now it's actually getting big enough for their previous years of dedication to pay off. Tastless, Artosis, DJwheat, Day9, iNcontroL etc etc were all amazingly dedicated to furthering the gaming community and didn't get shit for it for the longest time. They all made sacrifices for their dedication whether it was working less, going out less or spending their own money back then. So now that its paying off you are just going to act like that dedication never happened? | ||
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tnud
Sweden2233 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:50 Fake)Plants wrote: [...] I'm definitely not saying Day[9] lost the passion, but maybe Cloud has a point that these guys could be doing more for the crazy amount of money they can make casting. I know I would certainly enjoy it. I'd rather say that Day has changed his focus =P He started out as a mid to high strategies and stuff guy, now it's more a general low to mid tier stuff. I've lost interest for a while now but hey, I respect what he does all the same =) DayJ got enough money by now I'm sure that he can cut down on a daily a week. I think it will do him good too since the topics have all been done before. I still watch funday monday but even that's repeats now =/ | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
the sad part is most casters are pretty awful. there have been so many times during nasl, mlg, ipl, and gsl broadcasts where the casters are trying to make jokes and i'm just sitting there cringing. there are very very few casters who are actually funny enough to pull of making jokes all the time.... but regardless is that the ideal casting skill? every time i've tried to introduce i friend to sc2 their first reaction is about how unbelievably fucking nerdy/awkward/unfunny the commentators are. maybe i am just too old for the intended audience of such lame jokes but i suspect that people who appreciate lame puns and arbitrarily made up stories/jokes are the people not old enough to have an income with which they can support the sc2 scene. this would also explain why the majority of fans refuse to pay for content... they probably are just too young to have any money. i realize this is a subjective issue but i dont think my sense of humor is too far removed from mainstream. artosis if u read this: you are maybe my favorite caster and i think you're very funny when you're on talk shows like sotg game and allowed to act closer to your true self.... but for the love of fuck can you stop calling your audience nerds? that shit is so annoying.... i wish there could be some kind of poll that could show what percentage of teamliquid is comfortable with identifying as a nerd. I dont judge anyone for being a nerd as i myself am nerdy about several things.... but people will always get upset when you throw them under a label that they dont wish to identify with. and for christ's sake stop indulging tasteless when he goes extremely off topic. when that happens i become so disinterested in the broadcast and will often turn it off and find something more entertaining. a few days ago in the SOTG thread (yeah, i probably shouldn't give that thread any attention at all) tyler got raped by a bunch of people for saying that he preferred the mlg spring area over dreamhack because the quality of games were better. when people lashed out against him, it finally convinced me that the average fan (going off of active community members only) doesnt really give a shit about the game, they just want to be fed memes, rumors, drama, controversy, and all that other reddit shit. when i watch sc2 it's because i want to see amazing games and the continual refinements and new strategies that are being introduced. i could care less about which pokemon a caster most identifies with or whether or not somebody should be punished for "offensive" language. this paragraph has been a little off topic, but i think the "casters being paid more than players" problem is caused by what i just talked about. i wish i could have taken myself and my opinions less seriously when writing this but goddamn all this shit is so annoying. | ||
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HyunA
Romania362 Posts
the only casters i respect and really enjoy listening/watching are Day[9] and Tastosis. they are/were pretty good players too and i guess that matters a lot. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
I mean, the main issue that casting's job is inherently intertwined with publicity and community efforts, while players often aren't active enough in putting themselves out there for the community (often due to no fault of their own, since their time is mostly spent dedicating themselves to training), so it's more an issue of team managers putting their players out there with better publicity an whatnot. Also, why is he hating on TLO? TLO has better TLPD than ClouD, has recent tournament and showmatch wins (Heat charity invite, Kas showmatch), and has beaten a number of koreans recently (Real, Annyeong, MarineKing, ALive, Rain, Gumiho), along with wins over some good non-koreans too (Kas, Mana). And I don't recall ClouD having any notable recent accomplishments... I mean, it's not like I'll hate Cloud for bashing on my favorite player, but it does reaffirm the idea that Cloud is a player that complains a lot... | ||
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bmml
United Kingdom962 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:56 HyunA wrote: seems you've never heard Grubby cast. he's a freaking god of the microphone, not unlike others. the only casters i respect and really enjoy listening/watching are Day[9] and Tastosis. they are/were pretty good players too and i guess that matters a lot. Watch the video before replying please. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:46 Micket wrote: Interesting he doesn't find Apollo or Day 9's analysis insightful. Seems like the only 'analytical' casters he likes are Artosis and Bitterdam. He said Apollo is an oky caster but not as good as bitterdam or Artosis, and when was the last time day9 analized a game in a cast at the level Artosis or even bitterdam does it ? Most of the time day9 avoids or does not know the things that are "obvious" for a well trained eye but uninteresting for a low level player and focuses on small things which he makes out to be " the huge difference between pro and noob" so that the new players will think they watch a good play for the "wrong" reasons, also he always adds bullshit like "this game is very close ", " the player which will micro this last battle better will win" , " this is a very interesting strategy" when a really black and white situation is happening on the screen, prime example for me still being the Jinro vs Choya game at MLG... w.e it was, where he was hyping up the importance of Jinro with his 200/200 mm nuking choyas 160 good toss army that he could not reenforce since all this mining and production was down. On May 02 2012 01:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: So he dislikes casters for their lack of analysis, then dislikes day9 for over-analyzing? But then is okay with casters like Totalbiscuit because he is passionate, even he isn't great with analysis? So why dislike day9 at all if day9 can at least be equal to TB in passion and dedication, yet way higher in analysis? Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on TB, I think he's cool too, but I think Cloud is just voicing idiosyncratic annoyances at a caster like Day9. . He said TB is a good play by play caster, and indeed he is way better at "casting" than most casters since he actually went to an college which thought him to do that ( if im not mistaking ). | ||
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FloKi
1490 Posts
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. | ||
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money. He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. no no and once again no cloud is awesome for talking about problems in e-sports and as darkforce said, not everyone is doing that! | ||
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