EPTthe sc2 casters are in fact the ones bringing this game to a SPORT, without them sc2 would NEVER be this big.
ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation - Page 8
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zuperketla
Norway212 Posts
the sc2 casters are in fact the ones bringing this game to a SPORT, without them sc2 would NEVER be this big. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
But apart from that, I do see his point. I just don't think you can do anything about it. | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
But most non-Korean players (Cloud is among them) are nowhere as good as Korean players. So it's easy to turn his argument against him. There are so many Korean B-teamers that are better than Cloud, yet they don't have as much money and fame. How is that fair? People he bashes on are among those who work the hardest and produce the most of SC2 content. Day9 "overanalyzes"? Ok... that's a *totally* objective reason to say he is a bad caster. Wait, that's actually really subjective! If you don't like daylies -- well who the fuck cares, Cloud is not even talking about dailies. And when Day9 casts a tournament, he is usually paired with another caster, usually someone like Husky or djWheat, which balances Day9's tendency to overanalyze (and really, Day9 has really different styles of casting in dailies and in tournaments) Cloud thinks HD and Painuser are bad casters. Well, I actually don't like them either! But they have a full-time job at IGN, and it's up to IGN to decide how much money do they deserve. Cloud is contracted by another eSports organisation, and it's between him and his clan to decide what Cloud should receive as a salary. If Cloud wants to get some caster fame and money, why wouldn't he stream with commentary? Progamers who stream and interact with viewers tend to get a lot of viewers. | ||
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:36 Adebisi wrote: + Show Spoiler + That video was pretty silly. Obviously players will have better analysis, kind of goes without saying. Furthermore I think he dramatically overestimates how much money casters make, most of them have means of making money that they rely on over casting major tournaments. djWHEAT with TwitchTV, Day9 with the Day9 Daily, and so on. The casters really making major amounts of money from strictly casting games are really the ones sitting on YouTube with 50k-500k loyal subscribers, and the fact is those people could probably put up videos of themselves brushing their teeth or showering while singing Hanson and get just about as many views. Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds.... PainUser who works full time for IPL would make more money at McDonalds? Are you serious? One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. We're not in the beta, we are pretty much 2 years after release. I'm paying for nearly every major tournament now. It is no longer acceptable to have casters at these events, who I'm paying to watch, not know what the fuck they are talking about. | ||
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EagleShade
United States42 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:52 aristarchus wrote: It's basic economics - casters matter a lot to a tournament, and there are actually only a very small number who are very good. That means you have to pay them a lot to get them at your tournament. But the second tier of casters is improving a lot. Wolf is very good. Husky has gotten a *lot* better. Orb and Adebisi casting ESV is extremely good. dApollo is very good. Even some of the less good people for my taste (TotalBiscuit, for example) have gotten a lot better. We're getting to the point where if one of the top casters is asking an insane price, tournaments should feel more comfortable going to the next tier of casters without it destroying their tournament. That will only become more true with time. And as that becomes true, caster pay will stop going up and players will catch up. You can already see some of the worse casters starting to disappear. JP used to cast main MLG tournaments - now he hosts and maybe casts the qualifiers and so forth. Gretorp is now only casting NASL half the time. IPL uses CatsPajamas and DoA for their nightly shows, rather than HD and PainUser, who I think are clearly worse. I also wouldn't be surprised if before too long one or two players retire and become very good casters. And then eventually we'll get to the point where the only way into a good casting job is to be a pro for a while first, at which point no one will have anything to complain about. aristarchus here seems to be one of the few that gets it. How good or bad a caster is (knowledge of the game, voice quality, ect) has less effect on his pay than his popularity or his "brand" and yes, those things should affect his popularity, but at this point they do not. Players and casters don't just magically or through some formula get paid what they are "worth." It's simple economics. The money comes from the specific tournament which gets it's money from sponsors, advertising, tickets, and other services. The tournaments have to pay (mostly money, but prestige of the tournament and other things can be "pay") out to whatever player and caster as little as they can and still get "the best" of each and still profit (the real reason behind the tournament in the first place). This will get them the most viewers and hence, the most money. The situation for the players and casters is the exact same with regard to what they do. The more skill they have (through practice, time, and natural ability) the more popular they will become. That equals demand for them, which raises the cost to the tournament to get that player or caster there. The good ones will become in more demand and the crappy ones will fall by the way side. | ||
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appletree
Denmark109 Posts
On May 01 2012 23:58 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote: husky is the best example for that, he doesn t know anything but get s so much attention and so on.... sad, i agree with cloud The only way I could follow starcraft 2, when it was in the beta stage, was to watch Husky and HD commentate games on their youtube accounts. Since I could not play the game myself. I didn't know that TL.net existed, or any other stream websites for that matter. On topic ; The big events/tournaments like GSL, IPL, MLG, NASL etc. all got commentators that are good at what they do, and is liked by most. Smaller tournaments might not have commentators that are as popular or good, but if it is because you think that some of them lack knowledge about the game, or you find dry, you will almost always, be able to find another tournament running, to watch instead. commentators only get popular if people like them. Those are the faces that you see, since most of e-sports happens behind a screen. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money. He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level. IMO. | ||
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zuperketla
Norway212 Posts
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Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:59 Jono7272 wrote: PainUser who works full time for IPL would make more money at McDonalds? Are you serious? One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. We're not in the beta, we are pretty much 2 years after release. I'm paying for nearly every major tournament now. It is no longer acceptable to have casters at these events, who I'm paying to watch, not know what the fuck they are talking about. Pretty sure IPL's only full time casters are DoA and Kevin Knocke, and I can't speak for DoA but I know Kevin's responsibilities go far beyond casting. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Littlemuff
United Kingdom301 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:46 S_SienZ wrote: To be fair though, most of the time he only does that because he realises Artosis knows more about the game than him. He seems to cast in a fairly different style with other casters, a rare occurrence in itself so it's hard to show. So why not get another great caster to bounce ideas of? Someone like Apollo who makes a huge effort every cast, takes notes and still keeps the games entertaning? I just feel like Tasteless has got it way too easy. | ||
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
On May 02 2012 03:04 Adebisi wrote: Pretty sure IPL's only full time casters are DoA and Kevin Knocke, and I can't speak for DoA but I know Kevin's responsibilities go far beyond casting. Ah, I wasn't too sure when I said it, he used to be anyway. | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
On May 02 2012 02:59 Jono7272 wrote: One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. This might be true only for a few casters in the world. I don't think most casters besides Day9/Tastosis would be getting such a big salary. Besides, players are supported by their teams with monthly salary, casters don't have that. Should MLG/IPL/NASL provide a salary to Cloud? Of course no. Leagues have obligations to their casters, and to the winner. The problem is, where are the good casters that might replace those you don't like? It's not easy to become a popular caster, and last time I looked at "up and coming casters" I didn't like any of them anyway. There is a reason why we have a few overhyped casters. Just like we have a few overhyped players *cough*Idra*couch*Huk*couch* | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
...do they actually have huge salaries and fan bases? I highly doubt so | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again? Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Cloud hit a lot of good points, but I don't agree on his criteria for passion because their are many angles to it. However, I would say some casters have definitely lost their touch for me at least which is very uninspiring. On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability. Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again? Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. You just sound bitter and fighting fire with fire. Strawmans, psh. You know very well how long he's been in the Starcraft scene and his accolades Diamond. He's a smart chap who speaks his mind and he's always been this way. I wouldn't say he's only looking out for himself, but everyone else who plays the game. | ||
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CarelessPride
United States146 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability. Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again? Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. Ding ding. For ClouD of all people to be doing this is hilarious. He is the definition of a generic foreigner who is capable of showing good games but doesn't have any noteworthy results and can't go toe to toe with Koreans. If we went purely off of merit and not marketability (even ClouD has some marketability from his personality and status as a foreigner), he would be out on his ass in no-time for some Korean B-teamer who we have probably never heard of. It's fine the way it is. Very few people want to see all of their "foreigner" teams inundated with faceless Korean players, because they can relate to and identify with foreigners. Just like people want to see popular casters, even if they might not have the best game knowledge. Likability and marketability are just as big a virtue in a caster as hard work and game knowledge. Plus, if foreign progamers were all working as hard as he says they are, they would be able to actually compete in these tournaments, instead of falling over whenever Koreans touch down at the airport. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
This is not a pure problem of e-sports, this is a problem of sports commentary in general. If you're a good soccer player you'll most certainly feel embarrased when listening to the predominant tv commentators. But in other sports, people do hardly care about commentators/casters. They're interested in the aesthetic value of games/matches, they're involved with single athletes, clubs and teams. I don't see it as a huge problem, that casters are so important for e-sports, it's fair to say that they also deserve a piece of the fame cake, but currently there's such a big disbalance in attention, which is hurting the athletes. Please people continue to rage and spread hatred, don't ever consider to see all this from a neutral perspective. Just be hateful and ignorant. | ||
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Ricemagical
270 Posts
On May 02 2012 03:24 CarelessPride wrote: totally agree 100%. idk why the fuck is everyone thinking cloud is jealous of the casters. I think hes bothered by the fact that players work so hard to get to where they are and get payed so little. Yet most casters who are fortunate enough to be given a large salary and fame don't even give enough fuck a to even learn about the game. i think theres a difference between being jealous and frustration due to being under appreciated. What makes you think the current casters haven't sacrificed anything? The majority of them have invested a huge portion of their time into the game. Tasteless for example dropped out of college with only one semester left (to graduate) in order to cast for gom even if it was for the previous generation of the game. | ||
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