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On May 02 2012 03:08 Littlemuff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:46 S_SienZ wrote:On May 02 2012 02:36 Littlemuff wrote:
Tasteless is the only one that i dont think should be in the position he is. Think it was on the 2GD show where 2GD was talking to Incontrol about how Tasteless doesnt know much about the game. Incontrol said something like its Tasteless role is to ask Artosis questions. So lets put it into perspective. Tasteless gets sent around the world, earns enough money to sustain himself in another country, just to ask Artosis questions on stream. Dont get me wrong, TB is similar by not knowing much about the game and sometimes says stupid things, but atleast he does tons loads for the players and the community. To be fair though, most of the time he only does that because he realises Artosis knows more about the game than him. He seems to cast in a fairly different style with other casters, a rare occurrence in itself so it's hard to show. So why not get another great caster to bounce ideas of? Someone like Apollo who makes a huge effort every cast, takes notes and still keeps the games entertaning? I just feel like Tasteless has got it way too easy.
Because while Artosis + another player (like TLO at DH) might make most people who love analysis, myself included die of nerdgasms, Tasteless brings something to the table most people don't when he's paired with Artosis - Chemistry. Some pairings just work better than others and are best not tampered with, which is why imo Tastosis and Bitterdam are easily above the pack at the moment.
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Doesn't this seem really clear to anyone else?
No casters: SC2 games can still be played and televised
No players: Nothing for popular caster to do but talk about themselves (which many seem to do anyway!)
Why we watch: High quality games played by the best PLAYERS, relayed to us by the best CASTERS
Both pieces of the puzzle are the key to sc2 succeeding long term, and why I think in its current state has the best chance to last as an esport over other games. With that said, without players there would be nothing for casters to make money off of anyway. For that reason, I don't see why an investigation couldn't be done on the trends of paying casters by the organizations themselves to figure out what the scale should be. Obviously a high profile caster would be paid more then a mediocre players, but I don't see any circumstance where a caster should be getting paid more then a player at equal level over the course of a year, excluding expenses.
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On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
I aggree with your statement about Cloud - whatever - he's throwing stones in a glass house. But the casting scene is not as competive as the pro scene. New blood has just begun to get introduced (Adibese at MLG for example), but for the most part we still have casters from the beta. This lack of turnover means that there isn't as much of an incentive to improve. Now the sad thing is I think alot of casters are trying to improve, and are trying very hard, but are making minimal advancements in doing so. If your livelyhood is to cast SC2, then you should have more time than the average person to get better at the game. Yet, correct me if I am wrong, we have casters like Doa, Husky, and CatsPajamas who are below diamond league.
I actually like those casters alot, because they have the personality to compensate. That being said their casting could be so much better if they played near high Masters. And where personality is lacking (orb, HD, and Painuser) I'm a little disgruntled that they cannot show tip top knowledge of the game.
If I had to guess you would probably not agree with my dislike of Orb. Thats understandable. Your friends right? Sorry, to insult him, but that highlights another problem that I see with casting scene. Most of the people that work here are friends with each other and it wouldn't be farfetched to think that might be partially how they got their employment. Problem with that is, eSports is a business. A business that's job is to entertain. And for that reason I think that the casting scene should be as competive and cruel as possible.
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote:
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level. IMO.
NO U
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I think Cloud has sort of a point, but kind of messes it up with a lot of personal (imo mostly stupid if I may say that) opinions he sprinkles into his statement.
I understand he's angry, that a lot of casters out there aren't investing as much time in their job as players do, but get a lot more recognition and money for it. Since he is a decent player I get that this upsets him.
But I feel he forgets that,
a) we are in a growing scene, and in order to make it appealing to more people, casters like Husky, HD or TotalBiscuit, who don't have deep insight in the game, but can pull off the play-by-play part very well, are important, popular, get a lot of attention and thereby a decent amount of money.
b) sadly Cloud, among many other players, is good at the game, but simply not top-notch.
Comparing this situation to other sports, it isn't shocking to me, that he doesn't earn as much as commentators or expert.
If someone is an expert for, lets say a world championship in football, he surely will be payed more than a player who isn't even part of a team there. (I realize this is a somewhat vague comparison, I hope you get my point tho ^^)
In the end I must say I'm kind of disappointed how Cloud is acting in his VLOG. It's one thing to criticise a situation in an objective way, it's another to do it while insulting other players and casters. Since he wants casters to be more professionel about their jobs, he might want to remember that.
P.S.: Has anyone else noticed Cloud says "I think" pretty much the same way MC does? ^_^
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Grubby - Y U SO AWESOME!?
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Casters are paid by supply/demand. They may not be good and still get paid a lot but that's because there's low supply on (good) casters. The opposite could be said for Cloud himself - there are a lot of Koreans that can do a better job than him at playing the game, but he still gets paid more. I think it's highly hypocritical and the way he sprinkles his own resentful opinion throughout it just shows that this isn't much more than an angry vlog.
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On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote:
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
Just wanted to quote this because I think every bit of it is spot on.
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote:
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level. IMO.
You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event)
He is right about the situation, however the way he is doing it is despicable. The topic of the development of our scene deserves more than the rant of a underachieving frustrated player.
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On May 02 2012 03:58 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote:
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level. IMO. You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event)
What? The prize money debate was absolutely not uncalled for. Mentioning ESWC maybe was, but the post overall was completely necessary.
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United States7483 Posts
Simple explanation (little bit too simple but it'll suffice for non-economists):
Supply and Demand: Supply of players is very high, demand for players is high but small relative to supply. Supply of sufficiently qualified casters for these events is small, demand is high and is high relative to supply. Ask Day9 about how many job offers to cast events he gets.
So as long as the demand for their time is high, casters can get away with murder.
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On May 02 2012 04:01 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:58 Otolia wrote:On May 02 2012 03:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote:
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level. IMO. You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event) What? The prize money debate was absolutely not uncalled for. Mentioning ESWC maybe was, but the post overall was completely necessary.
EDIT : Sorry I just realized what you are talking about.
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On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
I think you need to read liquidpedia some more
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouD
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
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On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
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As a high master what annoys me the most is casters faking knowledge. Saying random bullshit that 98% of the viewers won't even notice, but makes me grind.
And they are a lot of these guys, sadly most of the casters are failed gamers, seeing that they wouldn't succeed as a pro gamer they went for casting. But they are still awful.
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On May 02 2012 04:13 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe. I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
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On May 02 2012 04:13 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe. I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
Lol, are you so annoyed that he mentioned Orb? You only have to watch Cloud when he is on form to know he is a good player.
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On May 02 2012 04:18 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:13 Diamond wrote:On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe. I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU). If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
He's not even half as good as illusion.
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On May 02 2012 04:13 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe. I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
Beating the likes of viPro, Phoenix, Naniwa, Stephano, Moon and Real at offline events....such a bad player.
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Sorry, but this thread is elitism.
I prefer casters that give me deep strategical insight and don't miss the little things that happen all over the map, but for anyone with less gameknowledge, someone that simply hypes the game and is fun to listen to like Husky might just be a more interesting alternative.
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EPT
