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I agree entirely with Cloud. There are many casters from all kinds of shows that are bad. I think many of these guys aren't even Master league yet. It's like watching a noob casting pros, they don't understand anything and just babble on about whatever.
It's much easier to be a noob caster and criticize players for not having perfection vision/info but it's much harder to be a pro player, putting in the practice hours, and playing in stressful tournaments.
Although I wouldn't say most of the popular casters are "abusing" the game. Many of them do have the enthusiasm and put in effort to be knowledgeable about the scene, strategies, etc. He's missing the fact that part of their skill is to bring in more viewers, get them involved and excited. So somebody like Husky or TotalBiscuit, who might not have GM/progamer level knowledge, are still good casters and are beneficial to the scene.
Perhaps Cloud should try his hand at casting and see if the grass really is greener on the other side.
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I watch alot of SC2 and I think the caster role is harder than it looks and critical to the ongoing health of the scene; however I also agree with a lot of what Cloud says. I feel quite a few casters are not improving and some are actually getting worse.
For me its a shame the worlds best caster teams up with the laziest. Tasteless clearly plays very little SC2 and apart from major events does nothing for the community. There is only code S matches a few days a week ....what is he doing the rest of the time because I doubt its playing/studying Sc2. If his only job is getting the best from Artosis other more deserving could do it.
Bitterdam have reinvigorated NASL and must be right up there as best in NA scene now.
Apollo is the best in Europe, although he needs to knuckle down and put out way more content else he will be usurped.
However the best are part time commentators because they are players. With next wave of top Koreans and young Foreigners (e.g. Illusion, Scarlette ) joining the scene it is inevitable we will see some retirements and as we do some will try their hand at full time casting. At that point I hope to see Commentating going to the next level with likes of Grubby dominating this area of the scene.
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Edit:
Seems like I need to add a quote so people get what kind of people I'm talking to:
On May 01 2012 23:58 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:
husky is the best example for that, he doesn t know anything but get s so much attention and so on....
sad, i agree with cloud
It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things.
I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
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I think he has some points, there are casters out there who dont deserve shit because they are bad
He also lists some casters who are bad and who he thinks are good, dont think its a good discussion cuz its his opinion, i dont even know half the casters he is talking about but i know tasteless bw / sc2 and in sc2 he is just getting carried by artosis..
so who's to tell who's bad and gets no piece of the pie... its all just opinions and taste who is to your liking and who's not
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On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote:
It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things.
I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Did you ever watch korean caster ?. It very fun to watch, eventhough you're the casual viewer.
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On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote:
It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things.
I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Missed the point / didn't pay attention / did you even fucking watch and listen?
He says how good TotalBiscuit and CatsPajamas are at the Play by play. He says nothing about getting rid of them. Re-watch so I don't have to explain it all to you..
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I think Cloud put a little bit too much hate in this video. I personally started SC" because of a random Youtube caster called Bodomreaper. He wasn't very good but he was the opener to my newest and most favorite hobby right now. day[99 on the other hand is sooooo usefull to the community. Not all people are so skillfull to commit into alot of gaming. for me day[9] explains me a lot and teaches me how to be a better gamer. If he will no longer produce dailys i think i might end playing, because there is just not enough knowlege in my brain to understand this game and proceed on my own. But i dont want to be a pro gamer. Without the nooby standart gamrrs the pros wont have an audience and NOONE will watch them play. especially outside of korea i think it is nececcary to produce contend for noobys.
And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
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Cloud makes some points that is hard to discuss on this site since critique of casters often result in bans and warns.
That this critique is hard to come through with on the 'main' SC2 discussion site I, I suspect, it becomes one of the symptoms as to why casters can get away with being of questionable quality. It wont be voiced and discussed when they underperformed.
Free speech brings forward many unfortunate truths.
In my opinion it is hard to discuss casters, also, because what each individual person finds to be quality is different when you ask around. I have a hard time with DJWheat, for example, simply because I think he has a horrible casting voice.. it is like nails on a blackboard. Hardly a fair thing to critique him as a caster based on as it is something he cant change. He is clearly passionate and involved in e sports. Subjective, individual reasons are what makes people pick very different casters as their favourites but when they have been picked out, and established, as good casters it is hard for them to ever fall through. Because they always makes it to the Grand finals. Players fall through easily, by not performing.
Players can be critiqued by what they bring to the table (Mainly their play performance)
Casters are protected from critique of what they bring to the table.
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On May 02 2012 05:13 markus85rock wrote:
And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
Because a) Take technically doesnt get paid by someone to cast the games in the first place and b) its his "company" and he has every right to do whatsoever he likes with HIS project.
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I think he makes a lot of good points, nowadays you just got to polarize so people give you any kind of attention. When you listen to Grubby casting its allways another league then the regular casters doing it, thats also one of the things that makes Takes Homestory Cups so extraordinary.
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Rotterdam would be the best caster around if his English and pronunciation were better.
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I really don't think you should be flamming casters, tbh, lets see the progamers do casting! Quite frankly, these guys are popular because they have personality and energy. Sure maybe some of them aren't as knowledgable as progamers or GM's but you know what, the majority of the people watching them are less knowledgable than those people anyways its only a select few that may know more about the game so plz leave them alone and let them continue doing their job. If progamers want more cash unionize and demand more from your teams.
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a good example for really bad casters are the ones in the nasl.NOT rotterdam and mr. bitter but the other couple.
i dont even know their name cause their casting is so annoying for me. pointing out so many things that are really not worth mentioning; just casting the units, the fights, expanding or not AND not some really interesting things like the ordinary build orders, follow ups, gas timings, scouting etc. etc.
i feel for cloud as i'm not even close to be a that good player with that much insight; so when even I REALIZE they are talking trash( didn't find an appropriate word) there has to be something wrong with their casting
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I think the main problem is that Casters get people to watch a certain event.
if there is Event A with Nestea, MMA and Naniwa, Event B with Stephano, Polt and Hero and Event C with DRG, MKP and Parting many people will make their decision based upon who casts these games.
This is different in other sports where there is mostly just one league at a certain time and fans root for teams/players instead of casters
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On May 02 2012 04:31 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote:
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people. no hes not ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good person im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not fake
A lot of people are nice and likeable. It doesn't make their ideas and the way to present them any better. I have expressed a point of view of his level and I admit it may have been uncalled for because I'm no one to judge him. However the rest of my posts stands.
He isn't condescending in this video, he is envious of casters. This topic could have been handled much better than he does, but like you say he doesn't care at all about changing things, ranting is all that he wants. Like the previous times with prizepools he has a point but he is so aggressive that it destroys what could have been a good debate.
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On May 02 2012 05:13 markus85rock wrote:
I think Cloud put a little bit too much hate in this video. I personally started SC" because of a random Youtube caster called Bodomreaper. He wasn't very good but he was the opener to my newest and most favorite hobby right now. day[99 on the other hand is sooooo usefull to the community. Not all people are so skillfull to commit into alot of gaming. for me day[9] explains me a lot and teaches me how to be a better gamer. If he will no longer produce dailys i think i might end playing, because there is just not enough knowlege in my brain to understand this game and proceed on my own. But i dont want to be a pro gamer. Without the nooby standart gamrrs the pros wont have an audience and NOONE will watch them play. especially outside of korea i think it is nececcary to produce contend for noobys.
And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
He doesn't say those random youtube guys should stop casting, they just shouldn't get more money than a professional player who actually puts serious time into the game.
Why should he say anything about TaKe?
He's barely a caster these days and I doubt he'd label himself as one.
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this post and that video is something a growing sport does not need.
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On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote:
It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things.
I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Can't you have both, understanding the game and not being "boring as fuck", I mean?
Anyways, I don't know why people assume it's either the one or the other.
As for the Vlog, I share some of ClouD's sentiments, but definitely not to such an extreme as he might have. I do not think that some casters are leeching off the community, however I do get irritated sometimes if I hear casters promoting themselves for the x-th time (while never mentioning the players).
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Well, I can't agree with Cloud. He is just so hateful.
Why that flame vs TLO? He has a stream, he trys to win something (and fails), but he is always a nice guy!
That's why alot of people like him.
Now compare that to yourself: You aren't a killer in tournaments as well. But all the interviews I saw of you are filled with negativity. You say: "I hate this game!" You say: I don't enjoy that game!"
Honestly: Why should any sponsor be happy about having somebody like you on his payroll?
Then next is the ***-kissing of Artosis. I mean: How about just watching Tasteosis? They make bad calls all the time, they don't know, what unit deals what amount of damage (legendary is their debate of how many stalkers you need to kill a medivac....5minutes long, no right answer. Any they repeated that many times, instead of looking it up once).
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On May 02 2012 05:31 zuperketla wrote:
this post and that video is something a growing sport does not need.
i think this is exactly what a growing sport needs. when think are to big and they are standart, it´s hard to change things.
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EPT
