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You expect too much from western esports. Historically it's always been a joke, and there's no indication that will ever change - hell, even the people behind it hardly changed and now that they've started making money off of it... no way.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
I'll bet anyone anything they want that 5 years from now the only SC2 we'll be watching is Korean leagues (IF it sticks there even), with a bit of amateur leagues on the side, and neither the foreign players nor the casters will be getting any money.
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I like how the players want a large game, and want to be the stars, but when the casters interview them, they have 0 personality, nothing to say and then complain about not being in the public eye. You can't have it both ways.
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Totally agree on kaldhor being a baller , i've never been a fan of the tasteosis combo, tasteless especially should be removed from the cast or demoted at the very least, he's casting is always mediocore, he's constantly parroting what artosis says and never appears interested in starcraft 2 in the slightest
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On May 02 2012 06:27 Talin wrote:
You expect too much from western esports. Historically it's always been a joke, and there's no indication that will ever change - hell, even the people behind it hardly changed and now that they've started making money off of it... no way.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
I'll bet anyone anything they want that 5 years from now the only SC2 we'll be watching is Korean leagues (IF it sticks there even), with a bit of amateur leagues on the side, and neither the foreign players nor the casters will be getting any money.
Agree, the foreign scene always goes for those hypes and publicity stuffs, which is not a good model for the long terms. Skill matters in the long terms, and history will repeat itself.
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Oh look Cloud is whining about something. I am shocked.
Why do players care how much casters make? If it's that easy Cloud then just become a caster.
It's actually much easier to practice and get better at playing Starcraft than it is to practice to be able to capture the attention of random strangers and make them care about something.
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People really underestimate how hard being a caster is. Players always go on this shtick about how much harder it is being a player and yeah, you have to win or you don't get paid and that sucks and its obviously very difficult and competitive, but there is considerably less room for casters in the environment. There are a tiny, finite number of spots each tournament has for casting and until someone they already have retires/dies/changes careers they don't go away. If you're an aspiring caster how do you get a spot in an MLG? It's basically impossible, at least the path as a player is clear enough in "win games". It's absurdly hard work on both ends, you can be an amazing caster and have absolutely no one give you the time of day. Orb casted 12 hours straight multiple times a week for months in ESV before anyone even knew who he was.
I think he was talking about how easy the current casters have it and not how hard it is for unkown casters to become big. And you basically just said the current casters have it very easy because they have the job for as long as they want no matter how little they improve (or even how much they get worse) or how hard their competition works to improve.
Isn't this a big problem because there is no inventive for any of the current casters to become the truly excellent Korean level casters the tournaments and industry needs to grow the audience? Maybe if tournaments made it clear they can be replaced if someone else shows more talent and effort esports would be much bigger right now.
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On May 02 2012 06:00 heyoka wrote:People really underestimate how hard being a caster is. Players always go on this shtick about how much harder it is being a player and yeah, you have to win or you don't get paid and that sucks and its obviously very difficult and competitive, but there is considerably less room for casters in the environment. There are a tiny, finite number of spots each tournament has for casting and until someone they already have retires/dies/changes careers they don't go away. If you're an aspiring caster how do you get a spot in an MLG? It's basically impossible, at least the path as a player is clear enough in "win games". It's absurdly hard work on both ends, you can be an amazing caster and have absolutely no one give you the time of day. Orb casted 12 hours straight multiple times a week for months in ESV before anyone even knew who he was. Show nested quote +I wish the community would show more support for the players "who live for the game". Hard work and practice doesn't get enough credit in this community and after all the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you. How many casters live for the game and get no support? There are hundreds of guys out there with youtube channels hustling constantly to get views in an already crowded field and don't get any support. This is no different between casters and players.
This basically is the reason why the current casters suck. There's no turnover rate. The same people are in code S every season. There's no qualifiers and once you've made it big you'll never disappear. The core of the problem isn't that it's harder to make it as a caster, it's that it's easier to stay relevant despite having really poor insight (Day9, Painuser etc.)
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first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs.
On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general:
Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
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Was so sad that Carlo forgot about Rotti and me until the end. 
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On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote:
first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs.
On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general:
Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
Who?
Watch Thorzain and Sheth commentate MLG Arena. I'd rather watch paint dry. Great players and great guys though.
The ideal combination is a really good pro player who also has some charisma (Grubby, Incontrol to a lesser extent). Idra is a good example because he's so incredibly knowledgeable about the game whilst also being incredibly honest. Idra however is not really a charismatic, "people" person.
Charisma isn't something you can practice. It either develops naturally or it doesn't.
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On May 02 2012 06:07 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:59 Hundisilm wrote:On May 02 2012 05:57 Toadvine wrote:
Honestly, when a caster earns more money from an event than the winner of said event (Day9 and HuK at Dreamhack Summer 2011), you know there's something wrong with your sport. Can you elaborate why this is a problem? Well, it implies that the caster's effort is more valuable than that of the player who won. Which puts you even lower on a "competitive sport" scale than something like WWE. At least people actually watch that for the wrestlers themselves. I'm having some trouble thinking of another activity where the commentator is more important than the subject matter. Maybe some form of stand-up comedy?
I don't think it actually implies anything about the value of effort of one or the other to be honest. It does imply that Day[9] (or equivalent caster) is more expensive than the quality of players you can lure with the prizepool (you can get players cheaper). Whether people should be putting in 10 hours of work a day to compete for such prizes is another matter in my opinion (not connected to the topic at hand).
I can see the argument being that the quality of games is less important for a successful tournament than good production and there are some issues with that (less incentive to improve the quality of games). For some reason I think that paying Day[9] quite a bit of money is more likely to increase the available prize pool (better production -> more happy viewers -> more money) than to take away from it.
As of the scale of things - I'm fairly certain SC2 as a sport (in the context I believe you meant it) is still pretty much in it's infancy, so comparing it to other things won't probably work out that well (I don't it's a particularly intelligent comparison).
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On May 02 2012 06:46 zEnVy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote:
first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs.
On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general:
Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor) Who? Watch Thorzain and Sheth commentate MLG Arena. I'd rather watch paint dry. Great players and great guys though. The ideal combination is a really good pro player who also has some charisma (Grubby, Incontrol to a lesser extent). Idra is a good example because he's so incredibly knowledgeable about the game whilst also being incredibly honest. Idra however is not really a charismatic, "people" person. Charisma isn't something you can practice. It either develops naturally or it doesn't.
I loved Demuslims casting when he was doing it for ESL wish he would do some more.
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Every time I see something about casting, I see people that want grubby to cast full time. That would be awesome but he's such a good player too.
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On May 02 2012 04:13 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 04:11 masterbreti wrote:On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses. I think you need to read liquidpedia some more http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ClouDTaking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke. Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe. I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
EPS is twice as competitive as many NA tournaments, sorry to say. I don't agree with everything Cloud is arguing but to object his point use arguments not stupid accusations regarding his level of play.
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On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote:
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
Even though Cloud "only" has a 50% win rate in the professional scene that's still better than the 0% Day9 or Orb would have. The fact is he works harder than those guys for this game and just because he isn't the most successful player doesn't mean his argument isn't relevant.
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I agree with cloud.Some casters are pretty awful.Game is almost 2 years old and some of them still have no clue about game and makes more money than dedicated pro gamers.Thıs is not acceptable.I think some pro gamers are much better at casting then regular casters like grubby incontrol idra demuslim.I hope in the future community will decline those clueless casters and only accept good ones.
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This thread, along with the one on (groan) Reddit. Both show why so many pro gamers just keep to themselves. It's almost impossible to make any arguably controversial statement without everyone jumping on your dick for irrelevant shit. Even Diamond comes in just to insult his win rate.
People complain so much about pros never being involved in this community and this is why.
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On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote:
first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs.
On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general:
Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
Uhmm, Total Biscuit doesn't make a living off of Starcraft, in fact he puts a lot into Starcraft where he could be making money on his own channel. Thats where he makes all his money , and a very large sum at that. Hes not very young and has a youtube audience which needs to be babysitted to be maintained. He doesn't have that much time to put into playing more Starcraft games. I must admit, I'm not a Totalbiscuit fan myself, but I do admire him in a way. Much more than I can care for HD, Painuser or Orb.
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On May 02 2012 06:46 MrBitter wrote:Was so sad that Carlo forgot about Rotti and me until the end.
Awww
Keep up the good work Bitter, you and Rotti are awesome :D
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On May 02 2012 06:46 MrBitter wrote:Was so sad that Carlo forgot about Rotti and me until the end.
that is because you guys care <3 you love what you do <3 and we love watching you <3 and your game knowledge is way above the average caster, you are one of the best casting duos out there
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EPT
