EPTNot really unexpected results, but it shows that it's a topic worth talking about if there are so many different opinions.
ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation - Page 14
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
Not really unexpected results, but it shows that it's a topic worth talking about if there are so many different opinions. | ||
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:03 Choboo wrote: Even though Cloud "only" has a 50% win rate in the professional scene that's still better than the 0% Day9 or Orb would have. The fact is he works harder than those guys for this game and just because he isn't the most successful player doesn't mean his argument isn't relevant. Prove he works harder. He plays the game. That is it. He doesn't run tournaments, he doesn't interact as often with his fanbase as the commentators he is slamming, he doesn't do anything to raise the awareness. Nothing. He hasn't won anything notable or giving anything notable to the scene. Just being a player is not enough, unless you are one of the very top players. Cloud is good no doubts, but he's not giving DRG sleepless nights. He doesn't work harder for the game, he works hard at the game itself, that is not the same thing. He is being judged on separate standards. No commentator is going to make first place prize money, but their income stream is constant. Maybe if the scene had some actually established teams and leagues like the Kespa Proleague, it may be an issue, but as it is.. it's everyone for themselves, and he's not taking advantage of everything available in order to advertise himself, and or make money from what he is doing. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
Most of the problem also falls onto the viewers and the tournaments. A lot of tournaments seem to think that most watchers would prefer to hear dumbed down casting, or they think they can attract new viewers with more basic casting and that their current viewers will watch whoever is casting. Maybe most viewers do prefer that though, and I'm in the minority of viewers who would like to more often come away from a cast feeling that I've learned something new I once watched a translation of the GSL Korean casters casting a PvZ and I learnt more about PvZ than I ever have from any English speaking caster. I'm not saying all casters have to be as good as the Korean GSL casters if they want to cast a major tournament, but they should strive to be that good and it feels like some casters have got too comfortable and don't try to step their game up enough. Hopefully they improve or get replaced, because there are a limited number of spots for full time casters and I'm sure there are better, more deserving casters than some of the ones that currently fill these spots. Also those saying "Well Cloud should just cast then." are using a straw man. He doesn't say he would be a better caster than Painuser, in fact he acknowledges that his English isn't good enough, but just because Cloud wouldn't be a good caster doesn't mean that other players wouldn't do a better job, if they wanted to cast. I think if Starcraft survives as an esport for long enough the situation will sort itself out. Eventually high level players will start to cast more often. The community does bandwagon some casters too much, but they also recognise talent when they see it and eventually more players, who are either popular enough already or talented enough to break out as casters will start to come about, Grubby and InControl seem like they could become the first. edit: Also I'm watching the replays of code A today and enjoying Wolf and Khaldor's casting a lot. I know people say that Wolf tries to be like Tastosis, but can you blame him? Artosis is probably the best English caster. Also they both work really hard, Khaldor casts so many different tournaments I don't know how his voice even holds up, and we've heard from Artosis about how he and Wolf analyse the game together outside of work. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:26 Gingerninja wrote: Prove he works harder. He plays the game. That is it. He doesn't run tournaments, he doesn't interact as often with his fanbase as the commentators he is slamming, he doesn't do anything to raise the awareness. Nothing. He hasn't won anything notable or giving anything notable to the scene. Just being a player is not enough, unless you are one of the very top players. Cloud is good no doubts, but he's not giving DRG sleepless nights. He doesn't work harder for the game, he works hard at the game itself, that is not the same thing. He is being judged on separate standards. No commentator is going to make first place prize money, but their income stream is constant. Maybe if the scene had some actually established teams and leagues like the Kespa Proleague, it may be an issue, but as it is.. it's everyone for themselves, and he's not taking advantage of everything available in order to advertise himself, and or make money from what he is doing. you wanna tell me someone like painusers whos job it is to cast the games works harder then a player like cloud? ok, then tell why he doesnt know shit about most players he casts? he talks so much bullshit when it comes to talk about players, its unexcuasable. then take Kevin Knocke, Artosis or Apollo on the other hand. You fucking hear that they worked their asses of to get to every information about players they can get. Take Khaldor - he probably casts (CASTS) 6-8 hours a day, sometimes more, sometimes less while still working for a company and interacting with the community. That is the passion so many pro players share which simply love the game and put 10-12 hours into it. Those are hard working casters - PainUser might work hard (i have my doubts though), but then hes simply not made for the job. Just because ur an ex semipro player, it doesnt mean you are a good caster even if u try to become one. A gold player whos good at play-by-play doesnt become a pro sc2 player by working hard. it doesnt have to work either way. Im not saying every pro player is a fucking hard working machine, but there are plenty who are but never get the recognition they deserve, cause they simply arent top foreigners yet or dont have fanbases. Its very different in the casting-world. | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc. The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. | ||
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projectChaos
154 Posts
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge. | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
All of this leads to salaries becoming public though. Once that happens everything will change for the better. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there... Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc. The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. i think comparing day9 to painuser, husky and HD is an insult in itself. he wasnt too harsh on day9, he just thinks he overanlyzes things a bit and probably shouldnt be the most "famous" caster therefore. he said hes a great personaly and was a great bw player. i dont agree with every aspect as well, but with 90% of it at least. | ||
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there... Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc. The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. Would you not say its a casters job to know the game? Sure they probably won't know it as well as most progamers because they do have to do other things to improve their casting aside from having better game knowledge, but they should have significantly more time and opportunities to play the game and discuss the game with pros and other casters than most of their viewers do. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous. Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge. everyone can be a pro? where the fuck did you get this from? there are ppl devoting months of playing and no1 even knows them. most of them arent even able to get into GM which is far away from becoming a pro. wtf?^^ | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Muffel
Germany137 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:23 StarVe wrote: Basically, every pro player so far agrees with the gist of ClouD's video blog while the guys on the other side of the curtain (casters and people responsible for events/tournaments) disagree, the fans/overall community are divided about it. Not really unexpected results, but it shows that it's a topic worth talking about if there are so many different opinions. basically the casters like TB, Day9, tastosis,husky etc have a HUGE fanbase and they bring a lot of viewer. thats a fact. as a guy responsible for events who would you invite? some random guy who might have some knowledge.. or day9 and husky who both bring a big fanbase. as long as these casters have a huge fanbase they are doing everything right. day9 has 5k viewers on his stream every day. he does some AHGL event on the same weekend as Dreamhack/MLG and has 18k (?) viewers on the stream. casting is more than just analysing the perfekt strategy. everyone is acting like these poor casters with knowledge get no chance.. its a free market. if you are good you will get fame. good=fans/viewer. good does not mean that the 1% of the people who got better knowledge then the rest will like my stream. they are showmen, actors, producer, comedian all in one. the whole post seems like he wanted attention. shittalked all the known esport figures.. what will he do to get viewers next time? shittalking MLG/GSL? | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there... Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc. The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. I actually think it's great how he calls Day9 out for overanalyzing irrelevant crap and being ignorant when it comes to the specifics of high level SC2. Day9 is very entertaining, and it's fun to listen to him present his theories of RTS gameplay, it's just his SC2 knowledge that is lacking. He's good at hiding this, but it's true nevertheless. The fact that he's quite arrogant and ignores feedback does not help. I remember an MLG last year where he and Husky were making fun of Sjow and Bomber for not putting banshees behind the natural expansions on Testbug - because according to Day9, they couldn't be attacked while hovering over high ground. Would be a funny mistake, if not how smug Day9 was about it, constantly repeating "You gotta know how SC2 works!". Well, he was right about that. | ||
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Kodak
United States157 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous. Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge. While we're at it, let's stifle education because mediocrity is "good enough" | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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RenSC2
United States1057 Posts
There are plenty of people out there putting in 80 hours a week of hard physical labor at minimum wage and struggle to barely survive. There are others who sit in an air conditioned office, listening to other people's presentations, and then make a few decisions throughout a 40 hour workweek who make a crap load of money. People look at that situation and cry out about the inequity, but here's the real deal: There are billions of people who can do that 80 hours of hard physical labor and even if it's done wrong, someone else can go in and redo it for little cost (some guy is also getting paid a little more money to oversee the work and make sure it's being done right). However, if the guy making decisions makes a bad one, he can cost his company millions/billions of dollars and put himself plus thousands of other people out of a job. It takes a ton of work to be a mediocre pro, but not too many people are going to stop watching an MLG/IPL/Dreamhack/etc because one mediocre pro doesn't show up. However, if you turn on the stream and the caster is some unknown who's doing a mediocre job, you might turn it off. It takes a whole lot more work to be a top-notch player than a top-notch caster, but the caster's presence will determine a tournament's popularity a lot more than a player's presence will with very few exceptions. The supply/demand is extremely bad for the players with few exceptions whereas the supply/demand for casters is extremely good for the casters, but starting to decrease. More good (good enough) casters are popping up and driving down the cost of top-end casters. Hard work is important in life, but it needs to be paired with smart decisions. Thus far in SC2, putting the work into being a good caster has been much smarter than putting the work into being a good player. When you look at money earnings, especially if you could calculate stream earnings, being a good player with a strong personality will earn you a lot more than just being a great player. You need to quit this notion that hard work = money. Just grinding through as much work as possible has never been the most lucrative path in life. Don't begrudge the reality, deal with it. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there... Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc. The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. | ||
JayJay_90
Germany1632 Posts
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
If the casters are truly not doing a good enough job or working hard enough, they will be replaced by guys who are putting in the effort. And believe me, there are hundreds of amateurs out there trying. | ||
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