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On May 02 2012 08:38 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:35 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:28 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games. An entirely different game... you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant. It's not at all irrelevant. Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better. Which was the original discussion. You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD.
Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
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On May 02 2012 08:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:38 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:35 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:28 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote:
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great.
Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB. You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games. An entirely different game... you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant. It's not at all irrelevant. Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better. Which was the original discussion. You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game. Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD. Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above..
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I 100% fully agree with everything what he said.
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Players are artists; Casters are critics. The players would play even if they weren't getting paid; the critics wouldn't have a job if the players didn't play. Casters translate the game to viewers; players wouldn't survive without viewers. They're both integral parts of the puzzle.
Is it really surprising that the demand for specific casters is higher and accountability is lower? Their job is to be as consistent and accessible as possible as the literal "faces" of e-sports. We occasionally see players, but you are listening to / watching the casters 99% of time. Thus they become valuable commodities, moreso than the players, because they are the means through which the players communicate their art to you.
There will always be thousands of kids who want to play video games all day; there are much fewer people willing to sacrifice their shot at a higher-paying day job to talk about games all day. It's basic supply and demand operating within a world where consistency and relatability are vital.
All that being said, I don't think there are any casters in the scene today that aren't trying their absolute hardest to refine and perfect their "art" and who draw a large audience. Maybe that audience is a different demographic then yours, but it doesn't invalidate the casters' influence within that sphere. Viewers are viewers.
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On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote:
because casters get too much money and fame for too little effort. I completely agree with this statements. Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game.
Did I really just read that? lol
All of the best casters put in their work to understand the game, and/or do lots of other things for the community. I just...wow. Day9, Wheat, Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Khaldor, and many others. You're telling me they aren't passionate about this game and don't put in a lot of time and effort? And never under heavy pressure? It's VERY nerve wracking to have to speak in front of a huge crowd and try not to mess up. Am I saying it's harder than being a player? Of course not, I just can't believe that all of their effort is being boiled down into a couple of highly uninformed comments.
LoL
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On May 02 2012 08:44 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:38 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:35 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:28 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
[quote]
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore. i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games. An entirely different game... you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant. It's not at all irrelevant. Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better. Which was the original discussion. You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game. Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD. Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about. no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above..
He's not a better player at the only game that matters for this discussion. Maybe he's better at Brood War, Pacman, Tetris, Call of Duty or whatever the fuck, but he's not better at this game.
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Let me ask a set of related question from a casual fan: How can I vote 'against' a bad caster? How do you encourage them to improve? Alternatively, how can we get tournaments to make Grubby and his kind cast?
Just bashing bad casters in the forums or whatever seems fairly rude, especially as it is pretty ceaselessly negative. Send email to tournament organizers? Stop watching their events? If you stop watching, will they know why? I really hope Diamond or someone can give some insight. Where and how can we inform organizers we want better casting without getting lumped in with the endless droves of 'haters'?
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On May 02 2012 08:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:44 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:38 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:36 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:35 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:28 sc14s wrote:On May 02 2012 08:14 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote:
[quote]
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better. Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games. An entirely different game... you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant. It's not at all irrelevant. Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better. Which was the original discussion. You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game. Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD. Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about. no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above.. He's not a better player at the only game that matters for this discussion. Maybe he's better at Brood War, Pacman, Tetris, Call of Duty or whatever the fuck, but he's not better at this game.
apparently BW is completely irrelevant to sc2.. okay guess im done talking to you since BW = pacman
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On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote:
I'm glad someone finally called out Day9. His casting is way over the top and nonsensical most of the time at major events.
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
This nails it, especially on day9 and grubby. I think once current pro players start retiring we will see a more competitive and better scene for casters
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Hahaha, awesome, TLO is asking a Bo7 match with Cloud to show him he's way better than what he credits him for. I love grudge matches. Too bad he dind't ask the oldschool Bo9 all match-ups format.
TLO 4-2
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I don't know, ClouD isn't a guy i listen to. He like a kid who says stuff and doesn't understand the consequences.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote:tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other. User was temp banned for this post.edit: read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269692¤tpage=38#758
Yes, i read his "explanation" which only includes an apology directed at TL for "underestimating" the potential for serious discussion in the community. Let's just say there are others he should apologize to.
Caster bashing is an easy bandwagon to hop onto. Too easy. They're people, most of them work hard. They're measured against other casters. You know what? Players are also measured against their peers. I won't comment on ClouD's work ethics, i will just ask you to look at his results.
Should all foreign players get better in comparison to Korean players? YES. ABSOLUTELY.
Should all foreign casters get better in comparison to Korean casters? YES. ABSOLUTELY.
We all know this already - we're behind, we're getting there, we're trying, some harder than others. Get over it.
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I think the moral of the story here is that the players that pour their heart and soul into this game every day for hours on end and are top of the line (just not korean) don't get nearly the amount of fame (or even money?) as some of these casters that maybe spend a total of 2 hours a week or month in the game.
People should demand more out of our casters and hold our players up on higher ground.
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so which casters would cloud like to point out that are bad other than painuser?
Edit: Ok i thought the OP stated everything what cloud said. Didnt realize it was separate opinion.
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From where I stand it seems like hes upset that casters and players get more recognition and pay than he does. While some of the points he brings up are valid the underlying tone, at least in my opinion, is that hes just upset he isn't as famous as he things he should be.
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On May 02 2012 08:23 MostDifferent wrote:
Another problem about the most well known casters is that they do not criticize blizzard at all almost
they do not talk about problems about the game
lack of features
lack of support from blizzard etc
Why would they, they're there to commentate on the game not give us personal opinions on features. I don't want Day9 telling me he wants this feature added, I want him telling me how the players have been performing, records against the player they're up against, their race stats etc.
Why would they do this in a professional cast?
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On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote:
Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. Day9 is always busy with anything SC related. Some casters might not be as good as others but that's why they're not as populair as others. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
Casters aren't the cornerstone of SC2. They stand on the shoulders of the players. SC2 would be a fucking terrible game to watch if people weren't so committed to playing it really really well.
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There's a lot of bad casters out there who don't try to have a better understanding of the game. It's even worse when they pretend to know shit and misinform the viewers. This is pretty much the main reason i watch only fpvods or mute everything.
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The only thing I hate about these types of threads, is that everyone misses the real problem in eSports is that it's top heavy in pay period. Which is really the trend in general I would hope starts to even out over time.
Casters, Players, and Everyone Else all have a small percentage at the top that make good money. Then there is the everyone else who is lucky if they make enough to put a roof over their head and food on a table. Though I would argue the vast majority of the everyone else isn't even making enough to not work some sort of 'other job' to make ends meet.
I like to equate where eSports is to the early days of the NLF back circa the 1920's and 30's. Back then most players, coaches, radio commentators etc. All worked a 9 to 5 because being part of Football didn't put food on the table. There was maybe a select few who could just do football for a living. This is where eSports is at right now, the vast majority have to get help or work a 9 to 5 to make ends meet, and a very small percentage of anyone at the top can do it for a living. It doesn't matter who you are caster, player, or guy working at the live events.
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The problem is that even though Cloud says many players could be good casters and could do a lot better the problem lies in the "could". They could be but if they were they would need to put in a lot of work too. For example Grubby, everyone loves his casting but from what I have heard he really prepares for his casts and puts in hard work.
It is very easy to just see the end result and judge by that and Cloud is very harsh. If every player would hear after losing in the first round of a tournament: "You are so bad, I know many people who could have done better" nobody would call that fair. And most casters get exactly that, not just from cloud just look at reddit or chat-channels. They are under constant pressure to appease their viewers, and that is a very volatile relationship.
The difference in the money they are making is just that casters provide easier accesable content and with more consistensy. And if you look at a Day9, TotalBiscuit or even Husky, they all put out an enourmous amount of content and work hard to organize tournaments, stay in touch with viewers, travel to events etc. I don't think any caster who is even remotly succesful isn't working very hard for that to stay this way.
Players also have to see that casters do not primarily want to appease grandmaster-players with their analysis but more the bronze to diamond-players who are most of the time perfectly happy with some not so educated casts.
The main problems is probably more how players are treated not how casters are paid.
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On May 02 2012 09:22 BlueEagle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:23 MostDifferent wrote:
Another problem about the most well known casters is that they do not criticize blizzard at all almost
they do not talk about problems about the game
lack of features
lack of support from blizzard etc
Why would they, they're there to commentate on the game not give us personal opinions on features. I don't want Day9 telling me he wants this feature added, I want him telling me how the players have been performing, records against the player they're up against, their race stats etc. Why would they do this in a professional cast?
I could see some basis for it.. for example backing up the crowd with "we want lan" in the gstl finals @ IPL4.. that seems like a fine place to criticize blizzard.
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EPT
