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On May 02 2012 08:56 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote:
because casters get too much money and fame for too little effort. I completely agree with this statements. Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game.
Did I really just read that? lol All of the best casters put in their work to understand the game, and/or do lots of other things for the community. I just...wow. Day9, Wheat, Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Khaldor, and many others. You're telling me they aren't passionate about this game and don't put in a lot of time and effort? And never under heavy pressure? It's VERY nerve wracking to have to speak in front of a huge crowd and try not to mess up. Am I saying it's harder than being a player? Of course not, I just can't believe that all of their effort is being boiled down into a couple of highly uninformed comments. LoL
In your arguments, you should try actually making points instead of just stating that the original comment is uninformed.
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Complaining about casters giving too little effort? Why not call out names and start picking them apart one-by-one instead of making a brash generalization? While I can agree that there's room for improvement in the casting department, you're kidding yourself if you don't realize the effort it takes not only to be a caster at a major tournament having to talk for hours, but also garner the popularity through whatever means to have the opportunity to be a major caster. You don't have to cast at MLG to know that staying focused to game after game for hours at a time day after day takes its toll. It really is no cakewalk, that shouldn't even have to be explained. Secondly, casters put in a lot of their own time making solo casts and- oh what the hell am I saying this for, I didn't see ClouD's vlog but is Husky one of the primary "problem casters"? Yeah people have and will continue to bash Husky and sometimes for good reason, but really. I find it hard to discuss casters lacking effort without being able to point out any one in particular. Day[9] has put in an unimaginable amount of effort for years. Surely ClouD must know of the Day[9] daily. In fact in terms of effort I can't think of anyone who's done more than Sean Plott. Any other "problem casters" we should have some names for discussion otherwise what's the point? And does it really matter? Pro gamers play the game for money, casters cast games for the money, at the end of the day that's all it's really about.
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The thing is that Cloud is so naive and does not understand the amount of stupid shit he says with his narrow minded programer vision.
As a player that made almost no success in StarCraft 2 (his biggest career achievements are WCG Italy wins and a loss in Nony vs Cloud final for a trip to Korea tournament) he does sure give a lot of crap to players such as TLO, PainUser, InControl and others.
As a player, he often sees a defeat screen at first rounds of the tournaments. But unlike him, casters do the entire job from start of a tourney to finish. Does anyone remember TB and crew at last years DreamHack? Does he even understand that StarCraft casting is not all about understanding the finest moves and strats, but talking to the audience, having a good voice, knowing how to cast with multiple persons, adjust to stream audience and a lot of other stuff behind the scenes (setting up streams, tournaments, uploading videos and so on).
The amount of shit he gives to Husky who invested ALL of his time to StarCraft in beta, creating videos, promoting, traveling to do interviews, talking to people who do not understand RTS games AT ALL. His ignorant look on StarCraft industry is so tiny that his blog does not deserve any attention at all. If you do not get a lot of numbers to watch his streams, where is he going to get payed from?
As for the numbers, how many successful casters are there? 5? 10? 15? Now count how many progamers are there with pay roles and tournaments behind them.
Jesus Cloud, i was wondering if you were to take a shit on Take who is terrible at StarCraft, but at the same time creates the best possible LAN tournament for the players in the world and does casting.
His own lack of insite just keeps making his hole a lot wider. I for one, will always skip his stream in the future.
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On May 02 2012 09:31 Areon wrote:
Complaining about casters giving too little effort? Why not call out names and start picking them apart one-by-one instead of making a brash generalization? While I can agree that there's room for improvement in the casting department, you're kidding yourself if you don't realize the effort it takes not only to be a caster at a major tournament having to talk for hours, but also garner the popularity through whatever means to have the opportunity to be a major caster. You don't have to cast at MLG to know that staying focused to game after game for hours at a time day after day takes its toll. It really is no cakewalk, that shouldn't even have to be explained. Secondly, casters put in a lot of their own time making solo casts and- oh what the hell am I saying this for, I didn't see ClouD's vlog but is Husky one of the primary "problem casters"? Yeah people have and will continue to bash Husky and sometimes for good reason, but really. I find it hard to discuss casters lacking effort without being able to point out any one in particular. Day[9] has put in an unimaginable amount of effort for years. Surely ClouD must know of the Day[9] daily. In fact in terms of effort I can't think of anyone who's done more than Sean Plott. Any other "problem casters" we should have some names for discussion otherwise what's the point? And does it really matter? Pro gamers play the game for money, casters cast games for the money, at the end of the day that's all it's really about.
Because then the vlog would be super long, and ClouD would personally offend way way more people. Not exactly something you want to do.
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See this is the problem, now Cloud has come out and said who he thinks are bad casters, now alot of people will take that as gospel and Casters will get an even harder time in chat channels and forums.
I agree, and have said for a long time that most casters do not put in enough effort. No where near enough effort to improve themselves. But to go on a witch hunt and for most people in this thread to just say someone is bad without any constructive feedback is bullshit. To just say "he knows nothing about the game/not as smart as pro players" is a lame excuse in my opinion. The top level players will of course have better insight, but can all of them make a spectacle out of Starcraft? Remember this is a computer game we are talking and a lot, and i mean a lot of top level players are actual social retards who have no personality and/or good communication skills.
To summarise, i agree with the effort part, but i disagree strongly with the whole "Any pro can cast" is bullshit.
Also, Cloud isn't even a top/code s player, so shitting on casters who are not Artosis is fucked up. Comes across as a whinging child who got less sweeties than his older brother. Supply and demand, pretty simple concept.
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What's harder to do? talking in front of people or playing a game?
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On May 02 2012 09:34 Garnet wrote:
What's harder to do? talking in front of people or playing a game?
100% depends on the person.
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Braavos36370 Posts
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
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Proud to be a fan, just wished you wrote it an hour earlier.
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Hot_Bid kinda hit the nail on the head in my opinion, fantastically worded sir.
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I'm going to call out Tasteless. Pros have said he doesn't play before, and it's pretty clear that he doesn't. He should work a little harder to be more knowledgeable and a better caste. Anyone on these forums would fight to be able to do what he does, and I feel like he's doing it the easiest and most minimalistic way possible.
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On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Somewhere through this post I started reading this post to the tune of So you want to be a rap superstar by Cypress Hill, quite the entertaining post.
Regarding the topic, this just seems to be another topic that is going to divide the community with an argument that just really won't end.
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I posted to reddit about this kind of agreeing with him and after thinking about it I think some things need to be said. Casters are a precious resource like there are so few good casters so the good ones or the popular ones are paid well because they can make your event.
We are at the expansion stage of SC2, like if you go back to the the early days of football (soccer) casting on radio or early tv its nothing like it is today most of the people casting were not former players but eventually as players retired new casting blood came up from people who loved the game. This made the commentators know a lot more about the game and they could provide great insight. I think the same will happen in SC2 like Grubby and Incontrol they are already kinda shifting that way and they are great amazing casters and personalities.
So my entire point is eventually what cloud said would be voided out by the players who retire and stay to cast and having more casters will purge out the bad.
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On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Pretty much the vibe I got from the video but I couldn't have put in better words.
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Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
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Nice first video Cloud, good points. Will keep watching ^_^
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I support Cloud and his views on pretty much everything.
I dont agree however on his "best casters" list.
Regarding the "top duo" Artosis and Tasteless, they are starting to get "old".
Artosis is considered the more "analytical" type, however i find that Tasteless on many ocasions shown that he has better insight, at the same time, tough, he looks, sometimes, like he has been tripping balls all night and barely managed to show up on time for the cast, i dont understand whats is going on with him, and it sucks because if he applied himself i think he could become a really sick caster.
I also got fed with Artosis and his "artosisms" it looks sometimes like he is living in a different reality. This may sound harsh but i feel that most people understand what im talking about.
Rotterdam and others imo arent much better then casters from his "bad list", so i honestly dont get why Cloud pointed them out, there are just too many flaws in their casts.
Like Cloud said, i feel players like Kas, Happy, Beastyqt, etc. dont get the recognition they deserve despite all the effort they put into the game, while other mediocre players get a massive ammount of views and support because they talk shit on their stream.
The same thing gets applied to casters, if a caster has interacted with the community and they liked it, he automaticly gets boosted even if he does a crap job.
I think most people would shit bricks if they knew the language and watched the korean or the chinese stream, and despite this they arent treated as celebrities and most likely only count on that one steady paycheck from the network.
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On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Because of your trolling skills, sometimes is easy to forget how good you are at expressing your opinions. You and Heyoka just summarized my thoughts.
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hotbid stealing everything i said but trying to make it look good by 'making sense' and 'being eloquent'. i feel violated.
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Damn Hot Bid, great post. Seriously, you really summed up my thoughts exactly. Your point on how players need to market themselves better (and their teams too) is something I think incontrol has talked about a bit in the past and is completely correct. More teams need to be like Liquid and EG and actually market their players. Results in any sort of competition never are why players are popular. Yeah winning helps, but you have to be savvy. Look at the most popular athletes in the world. They are far more than just guys that win. They are guys that know how to manage their image and know how to monetize it.
As a player, give me a reason why to watch you. The top casters are entertaining, thats why the masses watch them. Its enjoyable. But when I come on TL and see 5 players of each race streaming, usually around the same skill, you gotta pull me in with something else. You gotta be entertaining. Tell me why you are doing this strat. Kas and DeMuslim are two fantastic players. But when they both stream at the same time, I'm watching DeMuslim because he interacts with his viewers, he explains his thoughts.
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EPT
