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Braavos36370 Posts
On May 02 2012 10:11 Disposition1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote:
Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying. how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
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There are a few things to be taken from this, obviously one is greatly defined by HotBid, and the other is the community standard.
Obviously, as a community, the standard of casting isn't ideal...yet. However, having that push should help to motivate the casters to focus more on the areas of concern, while finding their niche.
But as far as I see it, because we're able to interact with each other so freely, the quality of the whole scene should always be improving. It starts with the game, and Blizzard making a product that we can get behind, then the players, and the matches they show, and finally the medium, our casters, and how they portray their thoughts to everyone. We're able to speak our mind directly to the source on all of these fronts, so our voices are heard, and that's what we need to be a little more cautious about.
While I do agree with some of the criticism, I know that even some of the lesser liked casters are working their asses off to try and follow their dream. Now I may be wrong, and maybe some are just riding the coat tails, but it's beginning to look as if the suggestions people are giving to the casters are becoming more and more hurtful, and we're better than that...
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United States23455 Posts
On May 02 2012 10:46 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 10:43 StarVe wrote:On May 02 2012 10:32 NobledBlood wrote:
When Cloud is GM in all three races, then I'll listen to something he has to say. More so when he calls out someone who IS GM in all three, and provides the most dumbed down and high level analysis of any caster. Do you actually believe Day[9] is GM with all three races at the moment or is this a joke? He said he is so it must be true.
He said in the past he has been GM as all three races but at present he would not consider himself a GM player.
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The casters are more important than the players, when those streams are running you have no idea who the players are because it's a video game, it is not like sports in that way. All you see is the starcraft screen and hear the casters voice so there is no real connection with the players at all whereas there is with the casters, it might as well be any two people playing a lot of the time
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On May 02 2012 10:07 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
[...]
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
[...] Either this is false or cloud does contradict himself in some sense by doing videoblogs. Because videoblogs are exactly that: fan interaction, marketing. And he does at least a decent job, otherwise this thread would not exist.
I believe this is episode #1 of Cloud's vlog. We'll see how long he keeps it up. In all honesty, if he does keep it up week after week, he'll gain a following because he'll be doing what he needs to do to get his name out there. He'll finally be putting in the work that he doesn't recognize as work and finally he'll get the rewards for it. Maybe he'll feel like a sell-out for doing it, but that's the reality of this world.
Or maybe he does 1-3 more vlogs and gives up. It'd just go to show that doing what all these community personalities do isn't easy. They put in a totally different kind of effort as Hot_Bid so eloquently said, and they're getting rewarded for doing it.
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On May 02 2012 10:50 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 10:11 Disposition1989 wrote:On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote:
Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying. how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING? Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird? For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more? You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
I agree about 1000000%. Seriously, people who bring in the most viewers and stuff for a SPECTATOR sport should PROBABLY be getting a good chunk of the money.
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The problem is the players are constantly improving while the majority of the casters haven't because they don't need to.
We need to make them improve or the casting scene will just stagnate.
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Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you).
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On May 02 2012 10:06 Ender2701 wrote:
The way you advance yourself in the world is with people skills, getting to know people, making connections, going to dinners, helping others out. It's not just starcraft, it's business in general. There's essentially no one who ever makes an incredibly good living by just being good at something.
Sorry buddy but you still don't understand how the world works if you think this is true, especially as a programmer. I work in the field and if I know some guy can finish a project in 2 weeks and do a great job - I'm going to hire him over another guy who takes 3 months, I don't care how personable they are. And when you work in the industry, your work speaks for itself.
This same philosophy applies to most industries. If you're sick - do you give a shit that your doctor's a nice guy? You seem to be blending professions here thinking that business skills are required for other professions. Saying you need to be a well connected socialite to be a good and highly paid programmer is like saying that you need to be a great electrician in order to be a highly skilled and paid chef.
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im kinda curious how we are even getting the figure for day9s earnings. incontrol 'said' day9 got 20k for dreamhack but how would he know? a rumour of a rumour? and this doesnt mean other events pay casters as well. it just seems like we are all arguing about this and yet no caster has weighed in and said 'this is what i made'.
huk isnt even the best paid player. sure he has the highest salary but i would be willing to bet that combined salary + winnings MC is by far the biggest earner in sc2 so far.
On May 02 2012 11:39 achristes wrote:
Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you).
while i agree with this, i think what is 'actually' pissing people off, but they havent really stated is that some people feel betrayed by how day9 has moved himself in the scene. back at launch he was doing 'every' event, his daily and sotg. he was pretty much the heart of the scene.
fast forward to now and the perception is that day just does his own stuff. hes barely on sotg, and when he is its for 45 mins. he spends 90% of his time preparing for his own stuff like AHGL and nvidia pro/am while appearing at less 'mainstream' events. concentrating on brand day9 rather than brand starcraft. by making himself less available he probably increases his appearance fee, as leagues need to compete to get him, while still making consistent money by doing his own thing.
now im not saying this is right or wrong for him to focus on himself or whatever but i can empathise with people who are a little peeved that day9 appears to be making the big bucks by being so tactile about how he markets himself rather than doing what he does for ESPORTS.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol
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On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Agree with first paragraph that there are limited spots for being a caster.So its more or less equally hard being a player or a caster. But don't discount the fact that former or current players could do a better job than casters with little or no playing experience in a competitive level. There is a higher 'potential 'threshold for the prior.
The only thing 'true' in the second paragraph is the difference between potential and realizing potential where the latter is often more difficult than the prior.
The rest about marketing yourself is really 'illegitimate'. A player should only focus doing what he should be doing to maximize his ability and nothing else to be able to truly be the best at what he or she does. Anything other should not be in the players workload or time as that would hinder his progress in achieving his or her goals. Cloud has a point here and i agree with him. The problem is that the profession is not paid enough to actually employ an agent to do the marketing work in lieu. Or the industry mature or lucrative enough for other industries to sponsor marketing activities on behalf of players. I'm sure Kobe doesn't need to promote himself as much as TLO does to sustain their fanbases.
The offhand remark regarding TLO is unwarranted but it has its point. TLO should just cut down his self-promotion activities and spend more of that time into his core goal which is winning tournaments or maybe improving himself. In the end if the goal is not to be the best programmer then self-promotion as a core or subgoal can be justified.
I guess Cloud's main qualm is that there are alot of undeserving casters in the present scene and they should really work harder to improve themselves to justify the amount of recognition and remuneration they are currently receiving. The issue here could be slack.
Worrying side concern is that e-sports could end up being American Idol where the singers aren't really the stars of the show.
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On May 02 2012 11:43 iNcontroL wrote:
yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol
Did Dreamhack pay him 20k, or did he make 20k because he hosted the stream and got all add revenue? Maybe both combined?
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On May 02 2012 11:43 iNcontroL wrote:
yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol
thats not what im saying at all. you would be the first guy to question where info came from if its private information not coming from the primary source. i wouldnt have day9 down as a guy who says LOOK HOW MUCH I GET PAID so it seems like a fair question.
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On May 02 2012 11:47 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 11:43 iNcontroL wrote:
yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol Did Dreamhack pay him 20k, or did he make 20k because he hosted the stream and got all add revenue? Maybe both combined?
I don't believe he earned 20K for a second. Have you seen the room he lives in? That must just be his choice but I highly doubt someone whose earning a good load of money every time he does something like this would still be living in a shared apartment.
If he did get paid that much then he probably had to pay for his own plain tickets/accommodation.
Cloud isn't even an extremely talented player, he's good for non-korean standards but he doesn't really have a name for himself like other non-koreans do. If he wants to voice his opinion then who are we to stop him?
I bet he doesn't think about how many casters receive hate just because that's the kind of job they're in.
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This got bigger than I expected. Even though I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones.
I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player.
My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job.
As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure.
And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote:
This got bigger than I expected. Even though I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones.
I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player.
My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job.
As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure.
And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.
Well said. I hope you keep speaking your mind. Honestly, this community need more threads/blogs like this. I think its pretty healthy to discuss the subjects you bring on the table.
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On May 02 2012 10:50 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 10:11 Disposition1989 wrote:On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote:
Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying. how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING? Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird? For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more? You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
Casting should always be a supporting role and not the main role. A supporting role should not be drawing the majority of the crowd as it would end up being American Idol.
If all things equal the main role should be making the big bucks otherwise it would not justify itself. If the supporting is making more money than the main then the roles should be inversed.
A sports contract should be higher than a commentators contract all things being equal.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Another problem with players being paid good money, is that very few non-koreans are posting consistent results. Stephano, Huk, Naniwa and maybe Thorzain?
If Koreans had actual sponsors interested in them we would probably see bigger salaries, and I suppose that is fairly likely to happen post-SC2/BW scene merge.
On May 02 2012 11:40 turdburgler wrote:im kinda curious how we are even getting the figure for day9s earnings. incontrol 'said' day9 got 20k for dreamhack but how would he know? a rumour of a rumour? and this doesnt mean other events pay casters as well. it just seems like we are all arguing about this and yet no caster has weighed in and said 'this is what i made'. huk isnt even the best paid player. sure he has the highest salary but i would be willing to bet that combined salary + winnings MC is by far the biggest earner in sc2 so far. Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 11:39 achristes wrote:
Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you). while i agree with this, i think what is 'actually' pissing people off, but they havent really stated is that some people feel betrayed by how day9 has moved himself in the scene. back at launch he was doing 'every' event, his daily and sotg. he was pretty much the heart of the scene. fast forward to now and the perception is that day just does his own stuff. hes barely on sotg, and when he is its for 45 mins. he spends 90% of his time preparing for his own stuff like AHGL and nvidia pro/am while appearing at less 'mainstream' events. concentrating on brand day9 rather than brand starcraft. by making himself less available he probably increases his appearance fee, as leagues need to compete to get him, while still making consistent money by doing his own thing. now im not saying this is right or wrong for him to focus on himself or whatever but i can empathise with people who are a little peeved that day9 appears to be making the big bucks by being so tactile about how he markets himself rather than doing what he does for ESPORTS.
You should never count something as uncertain as prize money when considering if someone is paid well.... Prize money comes and goes, it is nowhere near a certainty.
On May 02 2012 10:50 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 10:11 Disposition1989 wrote:On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote:
Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying. how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING? Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird? For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more? You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
As you said, it's not a problem that he makes a lot of money given his popularity, the problem is that he's so much mroe popular than players, which probably can only be solved with time/stability, since player performances fluctuate too much now.... That, and Koreans actually being paid their worth.
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