ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation - Page 20

I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.

On May 02 2012 12:08 Jarree wrote:
While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:


I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.

On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote:
This got bigger than I expected. Even though ... + Show Spoiler +

On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.

I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.

So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.

As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.

But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.

The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.

So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.

On May 02 2012 12:12 blade55555 wrote:


Day 9 plays sc2, he does a daily on the show to help improve. It's why he is so popular, he has a lot of knowledge, not like he has no knowledge of the game or anything.

On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.

However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.

Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.

On May 02 2012 10:50 Hot_Bid wrote:

Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?

For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?

You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.

On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.

But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.

The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.

So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.

On May 02 2012 12:29 Drowsy wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly, but I think part of the problem is that most of the people who are really talented people who explore the nuanced facets of the game are the same people who are likely to succeed as semi pro/pro players. This talent is "sucked away" from people who could be casting.

There's also just kind of a high barrier to entry in casting; tournament organizers would rather go with what they know than try out somebody new, and I definitely can't blame them. I mean a lot of it has to do with just the caster's speaking skill and professionalism rather than their capacity to provide meaningful analysis or commentary; some unknown guy on youtube might have really good insights but he has to have a huge following and have some experience casting live events before any of the major tournaments could be expected to give him a shot. A relatively small % of MLG viewers could actually differentiate quality analysis vs obvious bullshit.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it; the casters are there for the lay-person primarily, not for the people who actually play the game at a reasonably high level and demand more detailed analysis. With that in mind, if you were a tournament organizer, who would you rather hire? Somebody with a lot of fame and following who provides really basic and obvious commentary, or somebody with no following who actually knows the game well? Most of your audience won't really understand or give a shit about a lot of caster #2's analysis, and caster #1 has name recognition and appeals to a really wide audience. Its a popularity contest, and the things that win it are primarily just being accessible, professional, and charismatic. When you get a caster who is all of those things but also knows the game really well and is good and communicating abstract ideas and concepts about starcraft 2, you get Artosis.

Its a problem, but it's not like there's a real solution for it. Not really worth worrying about.

On May 02 2012 12:40 fmjwizard wrote:


IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.

Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.