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ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation - Page 20

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
May 02 2012 03:08 GMT
#381
While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.


I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.
Kamwah
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom724 Posts
May 02 2012 03:09 GMT
#382
It'll happen one day though Chinro! We just gotta dream big XD

Cloud. Everyone has different opinions on casters and not all of them even focus on an analytical style. Some of them say stupid stuff at times but at the end of the day when push comes to shove they'll hopefully be swept under the carpet if they don't improve.
It doesn't help your position that the TLO situation makes you sound like an ass tbh. Even one Bo11 does not make for a solid ground of saying someone is a bad player.
Learn to count with CatsPajamas!
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
May 02 2012 03:12 GMT
#383
On May 02 2012 12:08 Jarree wrote:
While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:
Show nested quote +
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.


I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.


Day 9 plays sc2, he does a daily on the show to help improve. It's why he is so popular, he has a lot of knowledge, not like he has no knowledge of the game or anything.
When I think of something else, something will go here
LoraX
Profile Joined November 2010
69 Posts
May 02 2012 03:14 GMT
#384
Very well said. I enjoyed reading your post and I completely agree with your opinions, as well as ClouD's. I also agreed with your opinion on InControL, I have a lot of respect for the way he handles his popularity. Thanks for posting
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 03:22:59
May 02 2012 03:20 GMT
#385
Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.

However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.

Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
TheAngryZergling
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 03:21:16
May 02 2012 03:20 GMT
#386
On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote:
This got bigger than I expected. Even though ... + Show Spoiler +
I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones.
I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player.
My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job.
As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure.
And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.


Much respect. I look forward to your next vlog.
Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.
Gobe
Profile Joined November 2010
210 Posts
May 02 2012 03:21 GMT
#387
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.

I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.

So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.

As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.

But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.

The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.

So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.


While I don't agree with much of what Cloud says, I believe he does have a point in that the standards of quality of casters is much lower than the standard quality of players. Many of the famous casters right now just aren't really that great of casters, but they still are considered the top casters. Tyler brought up something similar to this on State of the Game and I agreed with it then too. Most every caster right now either has a good speaking voice, or provides good analysis of the game. Very few to none have both. But I believe there are people that can do both of these(this is speculation I don't have any real specific people to point out), but they are not popular simply because popular casters remain popular which doesn't allow for many new casters to rise. This is contrasted with the generally extremely high standard quality of player that is required to be a popular player, which I believe is the source of Cloud's frustration.
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
May 02 2012 03:24 GMT
#388
On May 02 2012 12:12 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 12:08 Jarree wrote:
While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.


I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.


Day 9 plays sc2, he does a daily on the show to help improve. It's why he is so popular, he has a lot of knowledge, not like he has no knowledge of the game or anything.

Yes but that's just the thing. He does other stuff and has managed to make himself a brand. So people love his casting no matter the real quality of it. If you listen to his casting it consists mostly of overanalyzing and yelling "OH NO". I understand some people can like that too, but when i ask "why is he considered god", you start with "he plays sc2" Not really a godlike feature.

To me it's the same as paying Al Gore/Bill Clinton/whoever 500k to do a speech where he just says random jargon stuff that does not really have any meaning. But if there's a market for it, do it.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 03:29:59
May 02 2012 03:27 GMT
#389
By the way, now TLO should totally challenge Cloud on a showmatch for beard points.

edit: Oh, just saw this, nice:
On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote:
As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 03:31:08
May 02 2012 03:29 GMT
#390
I agree wholeheartedly, but I think part of the problem is that most of the people who are really talented people who explore the nuanced facets of the game are the same people who are likely to succeed as semi pro/pro players. This talent is "sucked away" from people who could be casting.

There's also just kind of a high barrier to entry in casting; tournament organizers would rather go with what they know than try out somebody new, and I definitely can't blame them. I mean a lot of it has to do with just the caster's speaking skill and professionalism rather than their capacity to provide meaningful analysis or commentary; some unknown guy on youtube might have really good insights but he has to have a huge following and have some experience casting live events before any of the major tournaments could be expected to give him a shot. A relatively small % of MLG viewers could actually differentiate quality analysis vs obvious bullshit.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it; the casters are there for the lay-person primarily, not for the people who actually play the game at a reasonably high level and demand more detailed analysis. With that in mind, if you were a tournament organizer, who would you rather hire? Somebody with a lot of fame and following who provides really basic and obvious commentary, or somebody with no following who actually knows the game well? Most of your audience won't really understand or give a shit about a lot of caster #2's analysis, and caster #1 has name recognition and appeals to a really wide audience. Its a popularity contest, and the things that win it are primarily just being accessible, professional, and charismatic. When you get a caster who is all of those things but also knows the game really well and is good and communicating abstract ideas and concepts about starcraft 2, you get Artosis.

Its a problem, but it's not like there's a real solution for it. Not really worth worrying about.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
May 02 2012 03:37 GMT
#391
MLG and IPL should invite the GOM casters. I watched most IPL4 on the Korean cast and it was freaking awesome!

Koreans need to take casting dominance tbqh
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
xuanzue
Profile Joined October 2010
Colombia1747 Posts
May 02 2012 03:38 GMT
#392
"hard work without results, is just like a hamster running in a wheel"
CheckPrime
Dominions 4: "Thrones of Ascension".
mrGRAPE
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore293 Posts
May 02 2012 03:39 GMT
#393
I chuckle everytime something like this comes up although I do see why this can be a serious point of contention.

The issues here still remains that SC2 is at a stage in its life where it requires more than just players to sustain and grow the audience numbers. The whole eSport thing is still really young outside of Korea and frankly, there are only a handful of foreigner players that can really draw a huge crowd on their own. If you don't have the personalities to draw a huge audience, eSports organisations won't have the revenue to keep putting up events, companies won't want to sponsor because there won't be as many people watching and the potential for growth will be lackadaisical.

BUT

That situation is slowly improving. We see players like Stephano, Thorzain, Idra etc who are able to bring in the numbers on their own. That's great - but let's not forget for a second that a large number of that audience that are watching these guys would have at some point been exposed to these players in the first place through casters like Day9, Husky and so on. I believe the salary/"effort" debate will eventually level off as we see players start to perform more consistently in tournaments and casters start to get dropped/swapped around when the demand for high level analysis is there.
Starcraft 2 and eSports enthusiast. https://twitter.com/#!/mrGRAPETV | http://mrgrapetv.wordpress.com/
fmjwizard
Profile Joined January 2012
14 Posts
May 02 2012 03:40 GMT
#394
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.

However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.

Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.


IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.

Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.

MVTaylor
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2893 Posts
May 02 2012 03:44 GMT
#395
On May 02 2012 10:50 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 10:11 Disposition1989 wrote:
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote:
Glad Cloud came out and said it.

As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.


how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?

Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?

For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?

You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.


Chriiiiiiiiiiist that's not even what I said!

I have no problem with him making "a shitton of money", it's just, as IdrA said, he shouldn't pretend he's scraping by on minimum wage.
@followMVT
Vague
Profile Joined April 2011
170 Posts
May 02 2012 03:45 GMT
#396
There are few English speaker casters that can make a big event (like MLG, IPL, and so on) worth watching. Without those casters those event's wouldn't get off the ground. This, on the other hand, doesn't hold for players. If you can't have MKP, DRG, Nestea, and Thorzain, you could still get MMA, Bomber, Parting and Huk. And if you can't get those you could probably get Naniwa, Leenok, aLive, and so on. On the other hand, if you can't get a handle on most of the casters in the small group of good casters...you are fucked...It seems then that each individual caster is more valuable to a big event than each individual player (good casters are not easily replaceable as good players are). This explains very well the disparity in salaries..and it's not the casters fault...
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
May 02 2012 03:45 GMT
#397
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.

But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.

The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.

So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.


I agree with you in some aspects, though Cloud does have some very valid points. While it is important for progamers to put out additional fan interaction media and market themselves, there still needs to be a balance between self-promotion and personality and results, with the primary emphasis on results. Through successful self-promotion, a pro-gamer can give himself better job security, as he knows that he will still have that fanbase even if he goes through a rough patch. I think that is good, in moderation. But ultimately progamers need to show results because this is a competitive sport and not some popularity contest.

The last thing we do want, however, is progamers looking at self-promotion as an easy way to success. I don't want to see progamers put more value on appearing on a talk show like SOTG, ITG, GD Studio, etc, than doing well at a tournament.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
fmjwizard
Profile Joined January 2012
14 Posts
May 02 2012 03:46 GMT
#398
On May 02 2012 12:29 Drowsy wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly, but I think part of the problem is that most of the people who are really talented people who explore the nuanced facets of the game are the same people who are likely to succeed as semi pro/pro players. This talent is "sucked away" from people who could be casting.

There's also just kind of a high barrier to entry in casting; tournament organizers would rather go with what they know than try out somebody new, and I definitely can't blame them. I mean a lot of it has to do with just the caster's speaking skill and professionalism rather than their capacity to provide meaningful analysis or commentary; some unknown guy on youtube might have really good insights but he has to have a huge following and have some experience casting live events before any of the major tournaments could be expected to give him a shot. A relatively small % of MLG viewers could actually differentiate quality analysis vs obvious bullshit.

It makes perfect sense when you think about it; the casters are there for the lay-person primarily, not for the people who actually play the game at a reasonably high level and demand more detailed analysis. With that in mind, if you were a tournament organizer, who would you rather hire? Somebody with a lot of fame and following who provides really basic and obvious commentary, or somebody with no following who actually knows the game well? Most of your audience won't really understand or give a shit about a lot of caster #2's analysis, and caster #1 has name recognition and appeals to a really wide audience. Its a popularity contest, and the things that win it are primarily just being accessible, professional, and charismatic. When you get a caster who is all of those things but also knows the game really well and is good and communicating abstract ideas and concepts about starcraft 2, you get Artosis.

Its a problem, but it's not like there's a real solution for it. Not really worth worrying about.


Yea tournament organizers prefer working experience and I think most of these sub-par casters are only there because they have prior experience. You won't want a caster who would just suddenly go 'blackout' on a live event. Tournament organizers pay for reliability rather than actual quality. And actual quality is really scarce as it requires a combination of skills, knowlegde, and experience. What would you look for if you were an organizer?
Dontkillme
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)806 Posts
May 02 2012 03:48 GMT
#399
Hey this was the topic for inside the game today
Bomber & Jaedong & FlaSh & SNSD <3
yeastiality
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada374 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 03:52:11
May 02 2012 03:49 GMT
#400
On May 02 2012 12:40 fmjwizard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote:
Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.

However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.

Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.


IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.

Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.



The thing about Tasteless is he's more than capable of being analytical and producing 'new' ideas the way Artosis does. If you don't believe me, watch the GOM broodwar casts with him as the lead caster, alongside Superdanielman, LilSusie etc.

It's very obvious from watching the GSL that they push Tasteless to be the 'colour commentator' role, and he accepts that because he's good at it and likes doing it. He has his moments being analytical and showing off his game knowledge, but it's not his place the way it is for Artosis. One thing that comes to mind is a recent code A game where Tasteless guessed at a DT opener from a protoss player (for all the right reasons - simcity, timings of gas, etc etc) while Artosis was blindly calling it a blink build. There's even a tastosis in-joke for this: whenever Tasteless steps out of his assigned role to call something that Artosis hadn't thought of, Artosis goes out of his way to remark "That was a really smart thing you said. You're a smart person, Tasteless." They're both aware of how things go and they make it work.

Both of them are very capable of analyzing the game at a high level, but it seems to me like the show is structured in such a way that Artosis does more of that, and I don't see a problem. Another thing about Tasteless is he rarely (if ever) says something blatantly wrong, without correcting himself. I can't say the same of any caster outside of Korea. You'll notice Tasteless doesn't claim to have X grandmaster accounts, either - he could be in platinum or grandmaster, but he doesn't talk about it because it's not a big deal to him. Better to say nothing than something foolish, right?

As for why Tasteless has his job (or should have it), it's because he's a total badass and is living every nerd's dream because he's good at being a Starcraft commentator.
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