EPTProgram to resume games from replays - Page 32
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shawty
United Kingdom294 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:04 shawty wrote: If this gets made into a completely workable program (in its current state, as in, still against blizzard's ToC) then just email it to all the major starcraft tournaments, and get the community to encourage them to use it. If there happens to be a disconnect in MLG Spring Arena, and they use the program to continue the game, Blizzard will have no choice but accept it Beacuse Blizzard and MLG are definitely not business parnters. -_- Everyone needs to stop with the selfish, "well a tournament should just use it anyway, then it shows we're better and have to be catered to". It's obviously understandable what we want, and things like this really get the community moving in the right direction, but that doesn't mean you should go against licensing terms or agreements. If you want tournaments at least. Unfortunately, we really do just have to wait for it  (if it ever comes that is q_q) | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On April 16 2012 21:55 AmericanUmlaut wrote: And set every unit's hitpoints and energy, position them correctly, figure out a way to give the players vision under FOW of things they'd seen up to that point, figure out what orders every unit was operating under... I think it would take significantly more than 30 minutes to precisely reproduce a scenario, and it would be incredibly difficult to get it right. Saving game state periodically or the solution in the OP are really the only two plausible ways to go about this. True that if you also need to set the units orders it will be hard. But setting the hp and energy as well as position is not that hard, honestly. The FOW might be a bit harder, but far from impossible. Honestly though, I havn't played around with the editor to much. But since you shouldn't need any complex triggers or anything like that (maybe apart from the FOW and uppgrades), it should be a easy task. Edit: Okay honestly? What is the matter with this map editor. Why is it so hard to just change the HP of a unit? it is way more complicated then it is in the WC3 editor... I guess it could be just me who is really bad, but if you really have to make a trigger for every unit who to set hp and energy, I guess there is a reason to why noone does this. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3804 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:39 JackDragon wrote: True that if you also need to set the units orders it will be hard. But setting the hp and energy as well as position is not that hard, honestly. The FOW might be a bit harder, but far from impossible. Honestly though, I havn't played around with the editor to much. But since you shouldn't need any complex triggers or anything like that (maybe apart from the FOW and uppgrades), it should be a easy task. So you are just guessing? Because it seems that way. I have not played around with the editor either, which is why I don't make assumptions about the time it takes to reproduce an entire game played including all the hp/energy on building and units, all resources mined, all buildings placed correctly, all control groups set, upgrades, orders giving at drop point and of course positioning of all units. Edit: Okay now you have tried, so you get the point I hope :D | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:39 JackDragon wrote: True that if you also need to set the units orders it will be hard. But setting the hp and energy as well as position is not that hard, honestly. The FOW might be a bit harder, but far from impossible. Honestly though, I havn't played around with the editor to much. But since you shouldn't need any complex triggers or anything like that (maybe apart from the FOW and uppgrades), it should be a easy task. Edit: Okay honestly? What is the matter with this map editor. Why is it so hard to just change the HP of a unit? it is way more complicated then it is in the WC3 editor... I guess it could be just me who is really bad, but if you really have to make a trigger for every unit who to set hp and energy, I guess there is a reason to why noone does this. God damn it. Saving game states and being able to play over LAN was a feature in SC1 back in 1998. In fact, most games back then had those features. There is no reason whatsoever why this should not be easy to implement in SC2. Blizzard does not want to implement it for whatever reasons, be it rational reasons or not, and that is it. In my opinion it is as simple as this: both Blizzard and the community wants SC2 to grow as an e-sport with the first goal to overtake the role of SC:BW. The community and the company have different concerns, restrictions and priorities, but the two sides are not independent of each other. SC2 wouldn't be in the state it is in right now if it wasn't for community feedback. But all feedback is not of the good kind. For the sake of getting SC2 to reach its full potential Blizzard owes itself and the community to not make any rushed decisions based on biased feedback (whine) from the community. The community had better make balanced and well grounded demands to the company as the opposite would not help us towards reaching the ultimate goal. This is a case where the community is too nice towards Blizzard, LAN support and being able to restore game states is a very important feature to have in a game with the ambition to become a legitimate "sport", an E-sport. The lack of the features mentioned above has already affected the outcome of a big final. It hurts as a terran player to admit it, but even though MKP was playing an almost completely flawless game vs arguably the best PvT player in the world, he was going to loose the game if the disconnect didn't happened. The terran player doesn't have the luxury of letting off the pressure in that situation. You can think whatever you want about how fair that is, but it is an obvious fact given how strong the protoss army gets if you don't keep decimating it. As it has been stated many times: the terran can't loose a big battle in the lategame because of the instant reinforcement capabilities of the protoss race. MKP would not have won that game if it had continued. I can only imagine that the game was replayed because of fairness concerns. MKP was outplaying his opponent hard during the large part of the game, but still wasn't winning. The protoss player only had the big advantage mentioned above during a period of a few minutes tops. I think the call to give the win to the protoss was a bit too hard to make for the referees. The community should not stop with these demands. We have to be very clear about the importance of LAN and saved games. In the short run it might seem unnecessary to implement this from Blizzards perspective. But I am convinced that in the long run these features are absolutely needed for SC2 to really take off as a serious e-sport. Calling out Blizzard employees by shouting "we want LAN" is good. Self moderation in forums like these is bad. Every time LAN support is demanded there is a mod closing down the thread with the motivation: "don't beat a dead horse". There is no horse! During countless live events I have seen casters trying to "hide" or not make any comments about these issues. I specifically remember an MLG tournament where there was HUGE lag issues in a lot of the games. I don't know, but it seems as if casters are instructed to not mention anything about this. I appreciate that it is hard, but if you are casting with Rob Simpson, who is a Blizzard employee, and there is an issue caused by his company's unwillingness to implement basic network functionality his co-caster should call him out on this. I have witnessed many awkward situations with Rob Simpson where it is very clear that his co-caster wants to complain to him about it, but chooses not to. I am 100% sure that every caster out there who has played the game on pro-level is of the absolute opinion that LAN-support is needed, so why not stand up for this. The mentality that you should not whine about imbalance when you loose, but instead focus on your own mistakes is very good. This mentality should not necessarily be used universally. LAN-support will be good for SC2 as an e-sport. There might be issues with implementing it, but from a perspective where the economical side of things is not important it is universally true that LAN and saved games will be good for the e-sport SC2. So stop being so politically correct. We want LAN and the ability to save games. We are the consumers, we pay for the game with the money spent on licences and indirectly with the time we dedicate playing the game and watching tournaments. It is our responsibility as a community to make sure that we get what we want. So make yourself heard. Don't get into the "don't beat a dead horse" mentality! | ||
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Kiwiandapple
Belgium240 Posts
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:58 Grovbolle wrote: So you are just guessing? Because it seems that way. I have not played around with the editor either, which is why I don't make assumptions about the time it takes to reproduce an entire game played including all the hp/energy on building and units, all resources mined, all buildings placed correctly, all control groups set, upgrades, orders giving at drop point and of course positioning of all units. Edit: Okay now you have tried, so you get the point I hope :D Well it was an educated guess from my experience with the WC3 editor but yeah. I still think that someone experienced COULD remake the scenario in a fairly short time. Sure maybe 30min is a bit on the low end but wouldn't it be owrth it for a fair game? That said, ofcourse something like this is way better and I hope that blizzard implement something similar. But I just want to say that the possibility have been there for a long time. And now when I have played a round a bit more I am sure that you can do it relativly quick, if you know what you are doing. Why is there no easy way to set hp and energy... Edit: I would like to add that while saving games is great, I don't think that is the most important or the best way to fix the problem. Because the game does not auto save every second right? certainly didn't in BW but you had to save manually, and it interuppted your game flow. So to fix the problem arising from disconnects. I think restarting a game from replay is the way to go. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:58 Grovbolle wrote: So you are just guessing? Because it seems that way. I have not played around with the editor either, which is why I don't make assumptions about the time it takes to reproduce an entire game played including all the hp/energy on building and units, all resources mined, all buildings placed correctly, all control groups set, upgrades, orders giving at drop point and of course positioning of all units. Edit: Okay now you have tried, so you get the point I hope :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=297534 allready done... The problem is not the task to save everything, this is very easy and can be done in 1 day. The problem is to find workaround for the retarded editor functions. That are half missing, half act wrong. To implement a save function if you have full file access and the real unit functions is for a good programmer work for 2h-8h. If you work at blizzard and have to write full documentation + present it on meetings + talk to other department to make sure everything work together 1-2 weeks for 1 person. to give you an example: This is a valid code i use at the moment to save an object that is way more complicated than a sc2 unit to a database. With all his "life / energy / buff / debuffs / position ...." db.save(object); | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On April 17 2012 00:47 Gowerly wrote: SALT I don't believe works between games. It simply saves out all the information of the state of the game to a bank file and then reloads it, I believe. It's not the same as figuring it all out. i does not work between games because it cant save to bank-files because of blizzard max-bank-file-size. You know how hard it is to find out at what % a morphing orbital command is? There is no trigger for it because blizzard forgot it... The salt code get all the information you talk about out of the actual game. A ton of code... But all this, is only hard because its a MAPEDITOR. Blizzard can take the data from the real dataobjects. And to get such data from objects is no work at all. They are made to get this data out easy. All the "technology talk" they did was just a bad joke because they said things are impossible that million of people do every day. Blizzard dont want to add functions and this have nothing to do with the technology or that this is much work. I dont talk about easy for a genius, i talk about any computer since student can do so... (or should be able) As programmer i can only see one single reason why there is no "save for multiplayer" in sc2: They don't want to have it. Why? I don't know. This guy here wrote a hack to do it. In codeing this is 1000 times harder than to do it if you have the sourcecode of sc2 and work with it every day. Its not hard to CODE such stuff, its hard to do so in a big company because you must talk to 20 departments and hold 20 meetings for every line of code you write. Every company try to hold this in a balance. My guess, (and only a guess ) is that this is totaly out of balance by blizzard. So much that the coders are afraid of adding functions because they know they have to work 8h day for the next few month only to document and defend their code they did in 1 day. Instead they just say "nah thats not possible" to dustin and he is silly enough to believe this and repeat it in public, | ||
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KingwAyz
United Kingdom16 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:14 Severian wrote: Pfft. In the time it took you to write that program, Blizzard could have easily made chat windows resizable in both the x and y dimensions. I'm pretty sure you can already do that? | ||
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TheSuperCow
12 Posts
I don't know if there should be a pause at the start or something in case players joined in the wrong slots... They might see something they shouldn't :o I guess I could also make it so AI players could take over for players, as this will not work right now. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:29 TheSuperCow wrote: So I fixed the join order thing & updated OP. I don't know if there should be a pause at the start or something in case players joined in the wrong slots... They might see something they shouldn't :o I guess I could also make it so AI players could take over for players, as this will not work right now. You should add that pause thing if your goal is to provide a usable program for fixing tournament issues. Thank you btw, good thing you are doing here. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
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davidc02
Venezuela32 Posts
This goes on to show just how fucked up the industry is. They do not care about the community, they don't care about the game, they just want to milk every fucking penny they can from your account. People might get sick of their BS and just play hacked version of StarCraft at some point. | ||
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:52 davidc02 wrote: So you on your spare time wrote a program that Blizzard wouldn't do with their legions of programmers. This goes on to show just how fucked up the industry is. They do not care about the community, they don't care about the game, they just want to milk every fucking penny they can from your account. People might get sick of their BS and just play hacked version of StarCraft at some point. People, maybe, pro gamers, no way. | ||
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Arghnews
United Kingdom169 Posts
And you sir, are a genius!  | ||
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BXiT
France44 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:52 davidc02 wrote: So you on your spare time wrote a program that Blizzard wouldn't do with their legions of programmers. This goes on to show just how fucked up the industry is. They do not care about the community, they don't care about the game, they just want to milk every fucking penny they can from your account. People might get sick of their BS and just play hacked version of StarCraft at some point. Not to mention that is was not as easy as it would have been for blizzard. I mean this kind of injection, is really hard and a fair amount of reverse engineering had to be done to do that. In the end, I agree, Blizzard showed us how noob they are at coding their own game. Wood League of programmer! | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On April 17 2012 02:52 davidc02 wrote: So you on your spare time wrote a program that Blizzard wouldn't do with their legions of programmers. This goes on to show just how fucked up the industry is. They do not care about the community, they don't care about the game, they just want to milk every fucking penny they can from your account. People might get sick of their BS and just play hacked version of StarCraft at some point. Nah, not money....bureaucracy. A company the size of Blizzard has legions of folks whose entire job is to erect barriers. That is what makes a bureaucracy a bureaucracy. It lives for the sake of itself. As the other poster stated, and as Office Space provided its laughs, you really going to put in all the work when you have to go through ten or fifteen different people and departments who are thoroughly detached from what you do? Good luck with that. It's like if you had to spend 80 hours working on something and then you had to go to the DMV and have them check off on something they've never seen, nor given permission to. Up on the line it goes. Maybe you'll hear something in a few weeks, but more than likely months and the most common answer is no. Believe me, I know, I've worked in one of the planets largest bureaucracies before -- the US Armed Service. It's a CHARLIE FOXTROT. This is why large companies feed off the Government's monopoly on violence and the initation of force. Without it many of these behemoths would be eaten alive by leaner meaner competition. They're inefficient monstrosities. It's not money, trust me. It's bureaucracy. | ||
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