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I didn't know that the T all-ins were THAT good wow.
@RemrafGrez NO, JUST NO. Mech/air just doesn't fucking work for a million reasons, it has been discussed so many times on TL.
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Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected.
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Why do Korean Terrans own so hard in TvP? Damn it :D
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Man, poor protoss. Hopefully something will be done about this.
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On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent.
ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin
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On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected.
Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss.
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On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin
But nothing beats the The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. Who cares what the win rates are in Korea, when I can't win? Right? Right? Guys??
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On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin
Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree.
And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so.
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Protoss losing is clearly an effect of the phoenix range upgrade.
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On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I saw pvz 57% favoring toss.
Its 55.7 and only in kor.
Not that it matters.
PvT is just... unexpected...
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On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss.
Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one.
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On April 06 2012 07:45 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree. And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so.
Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss.
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On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one.
In Korea P > Z, International + Korea Z > P.
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On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one.
International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans.
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On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans.
Then we should only look at lets say top 30 koreans, as the players bellow are blatantly worse than the top 30 koreans?
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On April 06 2012 07:48 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. In Korea P > Z, International + Korea Z > P.
Ah I see it now. That is close to a big gap, but when you look at PvT, I am ok with it.
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On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans.
What? It is not like korean pros don't participate in foreign tournaments or foreign players participate in korean tournaments. If anything korean graph is pretty worthless compared to the international graph, especially with that big difference in sample size.
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On April 06 2012 07:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:45 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree. And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so. Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss.
Explain how this has anything to do with what I said?
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I don't think people fully understand why that PvT is favouring Terran so much in Korea. It's not because of early game all-ins or funky tech-based pushes (although those certainly work well), it's because of how easy players like Polt and MKP find it to deny a 3rd base with just MMM. Once stim/conc/shield are out, there is a timing window before it is feasible for Protoss to have splash damage where properly microed MMM is many times more efficient than pure Gateway pushes - this means that taking a 3rd base is impossible, as you extend too much to be able to defend efficiently controlled drops without some way of being efficient yourself.
This partly explains why foreign Terrans don't do nearly so well as Korean Terrans vs foreign and Korean Protoss respectively: Protoss relies on Terran making a mistake somehow when trying to take a third base, as you have to hope they run into an easily forcefielded location or are too passive until splash is out - then, of course, the game becomes massively Protoss favoured. If Terran can play near-enough perfectly, it seems as though there is nothing Protoss can do. In this respect, it looks as though for a time, Terran has a higher skill cap than Protoss, if you will, as if both players play near perfectly then Terran will win.
Of course, this only represents the current pattern of builds in use. If a Protoss build emerges that allows you to take a 3rd base without sacrificing safety or delaying tech by too much, then the winrate could shift back toward 50/50 again, or even further, given the apparent problems Terran has with lategame Protoss once mass splash is out.
Edit: Oh yeah, this is all IMO. I'm not particularly high level, I have my own biases, I haven't watched every game out there etc etc.
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On April 06 2012 07:55 blinkingangels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 07:48 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 07:45 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree. And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so. Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss. Explain how this has anything to do with what I said?
That players should work on new builds and ways to play, rather then whining about how they cannot win because they are not as good as the pros.
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EPT
