TLPD March winrates - Page 2

On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote:
What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ?

If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones.

Or refer to representative GSL games, please.

On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote:
What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ?

If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones.

Or refer to representative GSL games, please.

On April 06 2012 05:08 blinkingangels wrote:

They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it.

On April 06 2012 04:35 Achaia wrote:
holy wow, this is the first time zerg has won more than terran in like a year??!?!?! nice!

On April 06 2012 05:37 Piledriver wrote:



Your personal experience regarding late game TvP is just skewing your perspective. Also if you see, Toss has been on the losing end of TvP for all months except 3.

Also, not all forms of early pressure are "cheese". Stop characterizing high level play styles based on your limited (and flawed) understanding of Starcraft. Most ladder players consider any attack before 10 minutes as "OMG CHEESE" or "OMG ALLIN". Don't be one of them.

Thanks.

On March 22 2012 14:40 dignitas.merz wrote:

I feel I should shed som light on at least my own opinion here. I do whine a lot recently, guilty as charged. I did not use to whine, for a very long time, I kept imbalance issues out of it for the most part. Why I'm whining at this day is because I look around and I see the only terrans being successful are koreans. I look at the koreans play and try to figure out why they still maintain such a high success with this race, and the conclusions I draw is that they're really just abusing the strong terran early game. I do very much so believe Protoss is stronger than Terran in the lategame, Zerg is too since the ghost nerf. However I'll be the first one to admit right here that the early game is imbalanced in favour of Terrans. Terran has a variety of 1 base openings that are sick strong, hard to identify, and all the units (hellions, marauders, marines) benefit a great deal from good control, which can make them ridiculously cost efficient.

People will argue "Then just resort to using the strenghts of your race" or "If Terran is so strong early but weak late, why do you even play for the lategame?" It's simple. All races should be equally capable in each stage of the game, they should have racial strenghts and weaknesses of course, but having a race who CLEARLY excells in the early game and slowly crumbles in the lategame is problematic for many reasons. Terrans early game strenght comes much from our ability to wall off early, which denies the opponent important intel early on. It also comes from us having a ranged tier 1 unit (the marine) so denying scouting probes/drones are a lot easier compared to zealots or zerglings . It's also due to our racial mechanic which is the mule, basically giving us a sick income boost of minerals on which we can spend towards powerful units early game such as hellions or marines. It also allows us to incorporate workers into our all-ins because mules compensate for the mining time lost if we bring scvs.

Now why this is problematic is because if one race clearly excells at the early game, the other races main objective will always be to just survive and take it til the lategame where they are stronger, while our objective is kill them as soon as possible. This basically results in P and Z tailoring their builds towards all-in play blindly, they even play overly safe sometimes (i.e. protoss going 3 gate before expand just because they scouted gas). This creates some really random scenarios at times which I don't think belongs in game where skill should excell above all else.

Take TvP for example, lets break down 3 scenarios that are all very likely, we're going to assume P scouts gas here

A) P scouts gas, knows theres a possibility of one base play such as 2 rax or the infamous 1/1/1. Plays REALLY safe because the protoss is expecting a one base

B) P scouts gas, goes for the 1 gate nexus anyways and is determined to hold even if it is a 1/1/1 or 2 rax.

C) P scouts gas and goes for a direct blind counter to specific BO, lets say phoenix play because they are expecting a banshee and then the 1/1/1 build as a follow up (which directly counters any 1/1/1 opening).

Scenario A)

P is playing safe, expecting a one base. Several things can happen here. Either Terran mindgames, pulls scvs off gas and goes for a 1 rax FE with reactor, as soon as the probe leaves or is dead. P is now automtically behind in economy because he played overly safe expecting a 1 base play.

Terran can also decide to go for a 1 base play, Protoss holds, proceeds to win game. Here it's already quite random because P can't really know if its a fake or not.

B) Again randomness, if The terran is faking 1 base aggression and actually went for 1 rax CC, the mindgame didn't really do anything and at best the Terran and Protoss is at equal grounds. This, being problematic seeing how Terran wants that early edge and to finish off protoss quick

Or.. Terran went for 1 base play and just so happened to pick the right 1 base strategy to hard counter your 1 gate nexus, Protoss loses the game.

C) Protoss goes for a blind counter, lets use phoenix opening as an example. If terran opens up banshee hes basically dead, if he opened up 2 rax, protoss is all of a sudden pretty dead. If Terran faked P out and went for a 1 rax FE, he's massively ahead in economy, because Phoenix openings aren't very good vs Bio FEs (lots of marines, early ebay etc).

A + B + C and all the different scenarios = RANDOMNESS

Now a Terran always playing it straight up, going for the macro game, is the only time P can ever know exactly what's going on. So here it's already like you're giving up some of your strenght. Worse is, once you reach the lategame where you both have 200/200 armies, Protoss reinforcement capabilites are so much better than Terrans (proxy pylons everywhere, can practically warp in 15-20 chargelots in the MIDDLE of a fight) while Terran can't macro and fight at the same time. Fighting in a 200/200 vs 200/200 in TvP requires 100% focus on the screen where the battle is happening which benefits a protoss with proxy pylons just behind his army. Terrans also has to utilize EMP, stim, kiting, and their vikings. All of these "lock up" important hotkeys during a fight which makes it extremely hard, if not close to impossible, to get a macro round in while you're actually fighting.

I think a perfect example of this is IMMvp. IMMvp is known for his incredible straight up play. He cheeses from time to time, sure, but the majority of his games are straight up solid play. Yet, which one of MVPs matchups is his worst? TvP. Also, if you hadn't noticed by now, IMMvp is posting worse and worse results for every tournament. Which Terran actually excells in Korea right now? MarineKing. Now if you compare the two, MarineKing always has a new one base strategy to pull out of his sleeve, while IMMvp relies more on solid play. MKP does however lack in consistency which I believe is because he sometimes just botches games completlty due to "picking the wrong build".

Whenever I felt playing for the lategame and playing the macrogame didn't work, I'd look at IMMvp and be convinced that it does work, but these past two or three months, I look at IMMvps games and im not convinced anymore. I feel it's a flaw in the design because each race should have equal capabilites in the long game, but that's just not the case. Terran is too strong in the early game and rewards mindgames, using a different strategy each time, and cheap all-ins more than solid straight up play. Obviously each race should be of equal capability in the early game too.

I could go on about this forever but I guess that's it for now. Also to be honest, you look at how Blizzard patch this game and you realize if people cry hard enough about something, it's eventually getting patched. I figured I'd give it a try too.

On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.

A bit spoiled there aren't we?

On April 06 2012 05:54 canikizu wrote:
I blame MKP, in 2 tournaments he alone contributed maybe 10% 15% of Terrna's winrate. The dude rolled like 30-5 or something.

On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:


Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game.

On April 06 2012 04:44 Recoil wrote:In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR.

On April 06 2012 05:33 Drowsy wrote:
looooool. Protoss was ahead by a few % points and master's terrans decided to boycott ladder en masse while everyone on tl.net claimed protoss was by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and badly needed a nerf.


It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill.