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On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?
No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw!
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On April 07 2012 04:27 Eiaco wrote:
All Terran players remind me of Veruca Salt. They think that they have a right to have an OP race as they have been spoilt since release. Can't wait until Terran has an even win rate so I can see some tears.
Protoss on the other hand have obviously been underpowered for well over a year now (as shown by this chart) and if it was not for cheesy 2 base all ins, I bet that Protoss would have a >20% w/l in PvZ. PvT is obviously favoured towards T (as shown by this chart) as their early game is way too strong.
I like how every protoss player bases their whole argument on the korean graph lol.
By this reasoning if you are winning as protoss in lower leagues over and over, Toss still UP right? "Man I win in diamond and plat all day, but IF i played in GM in korea i would lose  Terran OP"
We already know why Terrans in korea have success, because they are doing the only thing they can do to win.
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On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?
No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw!
And then you proceed to:
On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:
I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.
"invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level.
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On April 07 2012 04:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?
No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw! And then you proceed to: Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:
I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.
"invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level.
I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far.
I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right?
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On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene.
The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies.
Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing.
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On April 07 2012 05:14 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:
[quote]
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene. The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies. Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing.
I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran.
It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one.
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On April 07 2012 06:06 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 05:14 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:
[quote]
No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive.
Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up.
Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled.
Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene. The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies. Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing. I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran. It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one.
Sadly, you have come to the wrong community to express that opinion. TL is a site that focuses and reports on highlevel, professional play. I understand you are fustrated and there may be other people like you in every race at every skill level, but this is not where you want do express those complaints. Many of the people who come to this site want to see the highest level play possible and do not want the game changed to make it easier for any play level or race. They come here to watch and learn from the professionals and try to emulate their play to the best of their ability.
Once again, you opinion is your own and there is nothing wrong with being fustrated, but I think you have pick the wrong audience to make your argument to.
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On April 07 2012 06:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 06:06 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 05:14 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:
[quote]
Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here.
You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement.
No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority.
Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene. The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies. Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing. I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran. It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one. Sadly, you have come to the wrong community to express that opinion. TL is a site that focuses and reports on highlevel, professional play. I understand you are fustrated and there may be other people like you in every race at every skill level, but this is not where you want do express those complaints. Many of the people who come to this site want to see the highest level play possible and do not want the game changed to make it easier for any play level or race. They come here to watch and learn from the professionals and try to emulate their play to the best of their ability. Once again, you opinion is your own and there is nothing wrong with being fustrated, but I think you have pick the wrong audience to make your argument to.
If you read more closely, I don't want to make the game easier. I want to make the game harder overall. No effect on the pro level, higher level of entry for the lower level.
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On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:50 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.
A bit spoiled there aren't we?
Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement. So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then? If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry. The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost". So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better? I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings" Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it" "But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.
Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss.
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On April 07 2012 06:59 KaBaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 03:50 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:
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Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement. So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then? If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry. The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost". So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better? I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings" Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it" "But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono. Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss.
I'm a grandmaster protoss and I play zerg and terran at gold level. Oh, what's that? Anecdotal evidence? Not even evidence at all, because I didn't provide any links? Great deal.
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On April 07 2012 04:43 Superneenja wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:34 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?
No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw! And then you proceed to: On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:
I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.
"invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level. I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far. I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right?
Congratulations on your three platinum wins. Clearly the ease with which you won these three games is representative of the fact that protoss is dramatically overpowered
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On April 07 2012 07:23 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 06:59 KaBaaM wrote:On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 03:50 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:
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No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive.
Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up.
Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled.
Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. T he same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement. So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then? If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry. The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost". So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better? I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings" Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it" "But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono. Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss. I'm a grandmaster protoss and I play zerg and terran at gold level. Oh, what's that? Anecdotal evidence? Not even evidence at all, because I didn't provide any links? Great deal.
Calm down there mate - I was just pointing at that I was a Protoss player who did play other races, as the person I replied to was requesting.
Here's my rank (I'm the only Kabaam ...)
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1540525/KaBaaM
Kabaam.332 on BattleNet - my last season I ended up playing mostly Random, but I was playing Terran for a significant amount of that as well.
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On April 07 2012 07:29 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:43 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 04:34 Plansix wrote:On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote:On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?
No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw! And then you proceed to: On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:
I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.
"invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level. I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far. I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right? Congratulations on your three platinum wins. Clearly the ease with which you won these three games is representative of the fact that protoss is dramatically overpowered
Hey! Thanks man, appreciate the support. We are both on the same page now! 
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protoss getting roflstomped
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Thing is we wont know for sure until those winrates are divided into different time categories (for instance, early game = <10min, mid game = 10~20min, and late game = <20min) so that it gives a clearer picture of what the balances are like. If its skewed or lopsided e.g majority winrates for T comes mid game, and P from late game, then there is clearly something wrong with the balances.
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has anyone else noticed how well foreign zergs do compared to the other races? I think it's easier to beat a better player as zerg than it is for a toss or terran. The stephano/DRG style of mass speed roach is so good and pretty easy to use compared to how hard it is to defend vs. it. ZvZ is pretty coinflippy which leads to somewhat less reliable play, and ZvT has gotten easier since the advent of the infestor/ling style. all this combined seems to make it easier for a foreign zerg to go against top level players.
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First time Zerg beating Terran. Interesting.
Terran vs. Protoss = holy shit whaaaaat x.x Not again
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On April 06 2012 10:22 T0fuuu wrote:
Terrans are destroying protoss in tvp now? I think I will give it another month and see what happens to protoss in gsl. Last season was definately a good season for protoss and i was expecting more terrans to get knocked out of code s for this season.
Where have you been for... the entire history of SC2? o.O
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On April 07 2012 12:04 JiYan wrote:
O_O protoss tears
For me anyway, it's not so much "QQ my race is the worst", it's more just pointing out how ridiculous it was that terrans have been raging about how imbalanced pvt is for the past 2 months despite the fact that at the pro level it was a whopping 51% advantage for protoss. Then on top of this there's this ridiculous perception on tl.net that protoss is by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and involves nothing but building a deathball and a moving.
Of course numerous people have pointed out the late game vs early game dichotomy that exists in tvp, yet everyone has brilliant ideas about how to fix protoss' advantage in the late game and are completely silent about the ridiculous and terrifying experience of pvt in the first 15 minute. In a game where the average pro level match length is like 13 minutes its kind of astonishing the way people talk about pvt.
For what it's worth, I'm masters protoss and I personally don't think blizzard should make any more balance changes until HOTS. The game is in the realm of "balanced enough", and if metagame shifts don't knock it out of the loose equilibrium its currently in for several month periods, doing nothing is probably a good decision by blizz. Most of the balance problems that do exist (lategame vs early game pvt, mothership dice rolling vs infestor broodlord in pvz are more systematic and can't be fixed by adjusting stats here and there. Might as well wait until an expansion pack to address them.) The negative attitude on tl.net toward protoss is what's frustrating, not the game itself.
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EPT
