TLPD March winrates

On April 06 2012 04:29 Arcanewinds wrote:
They've already been posted dude

Edit: Though I'm sure I've seen them, I can't find :o. You could be the first afterall.

On April 06 2012 04:39 k!llua wrote:
wtf are koreans doing internationally in tvp o_O o_O

On April 06 2012 05:08 blinkingangels wrote:

They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it.

On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote:
What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ?

If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones.

Or refer to representative GSL games, please.

On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote:
What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ?

If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones.

Or refer to representative GSL games, please.

On April 06 2012 05:08 blinkingangels wrote:

They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it.

On April 06 2012 04:35 Achaia wrote:
holy wow, this is the first time zerg has won more than terran in like a year??!?!?! nice!

On April 06 2012 05:37 Piledriver wrote:



Your personal experience regarding late game TvP is just skewing your perspective. Also if you see, Toss has been on the losing end of TvP for all months except 3.

Also, not all forms of early pressure are "cheese". Stop characterizing high level play styles based on your limited (and flawed) understanding of Starcraft. Most ladder players consider any attack before 10 minutes as "OMG CHEESE" or "OMG ALLIN". Don't be one of them.

Thanks.

On March 22 2012 14:40 dignitas.merz wrote:

I feel I should shed som light on at least my own opinion here. I do whine a lot recently, guilty as charged. I did not use to whine, for a very long time, I kept imbalance issues out of it for the most part. Why I'm whining at this day is because I look around and I see the only terrans being successful are koreans. I look at the koreans play and try to figure out why they still maintain such a high success with this race, and the conclusions I draw is that they're really just abusing the strong terran early game. I do very much so believe Protoss is stronger than Terran in the lategame, Zerg is too since the ghost nerf. However I'll be the first one to admit right here that the early game is imbalanced in favour of Terrans. Terran has a variety of 1 base openings that are sick strong, hard to identify, and all the units (hellions, marauders, marines) benefit a great deal from good control, which can make them ridiculously cost efficient.

People will argue "Then just resort to using the strenghts of your race" or "If Terran is so strong early but weak late, why do you even play for the lategame?" It's simple. All races should be equally capable in each stage of the game, they should have racial strenghts and weaknesses of course, but having a race who CLEARLY excells in the early game and slowly crumbles in the lategame is problematic for many reasons. Terrans early game strenght comes much from our ability to wall off early, which denies the opponent important intel early on. It also comes from us having a ranged tier 1 unit (the marine) so denying scouting probes/drones are a lot easier compared to zealots or zerglings . It's also due to our racial mechanic which is the mule, basically giving us a sick income boost of minerals on which we can spend towards powerful units early game such as hellions or marines. It also allows us to incorporate workers into our all-ins because mules compensate for the mining time lost if we bring scvs.

Now why this is problematic is because if one race clearly excells at the early game, the other races main objective will always be to just survive and take it til the lategame where they are stronger, while our objective is kill them as soon as possible. This basically results in P and Z tailoring their builds towards all-in play blindly, they even play overly safe sometimes (i.e. protoss going 3 gate before expand just because they scouted gas). This creates some really random scenarios at times which I don't think belongs in game where skill should excell above all else.

Take TvP for example, lets break down 3 scenarios that are all very likely, we're going to assume P scouts gas here

A) P scouts gas, knows theres a possibility of one base play such as 2 rax or the infamous 1/1/1. Plays REALLY safe because the protoss is expecting a one base

B) P scouts gas, goes for the 1 gate nexus anyways and is determined to hold even if it is a 1/1/1 or 2 rax.

C) P scouts gas and goes for a direct blind counter to specific BO, lets say phoenix play because they are expecting a banshee and then the 1/1/1 build as a follow up (which directly counters any 1/1/1 opening).

Scenario A)

P is playing safe, expecting a one base. Several things can happen here. Either Terran mindgames, pulls scvs off gas and goes for a 1 rax FE with reactor, as soon as the probe leaves or is dead. P is now automtically behind in economy because he played overly safe expecting a 1 base play.

Terran can also decide to go for a 1 base play, Protoss holds, proceeds to win game. Here it's already quite random because P can't really know if its a fake or not.

B) Again randomness, if The terran is faking 1 base aggression and actually went for 1 rax CC, the mindgame didn't really do anything and at best the Terran and Protoss is at equal grounds. This, being problematic seeing how Terran wants that early edge and to finish off protoss quick

Or.. Terran went for 1 base play and just so happened to pick the right 1 base strategy to hard counter your 1 gate nexus, Protoss loses the game.

C) Protoss goes for a blind counter, lets use phoenix opening as an example. If terran opens up banshee hes basically dead, if he opened up 2 rax, protoss is all of a sudden pretty dead. If Terran faked P out and went for a 1 rax FE, he's massively ahead in economy, because Phoenix openings aren't very good vs Bio FEs (lots of marines, early ebay etc).

A + B + C and all the different scenarios = RANDOMNESS

Now a Terran always playing it straight up, going for the macro game, is the only time P can ever know exactly what's going on. So here it's already like you're giving up some of your strenght. Worse is, once you reach the lategame where you both have 200/200 armies, Protoss reinforcement capabilites are so much better than Terrans (proxy pylons everywhere, can practically warp in 15-20 chargelots in the MIDDLE of a fight) while Terran can't macro and fight at the same time. Fighting in a 200/200 vs 200/200 in TvP requires 100% focus on the screen where the battle is happening which benefits a protoss with proxy pylons just behind his army. Terrans also has to utilize EMP, stim, kiting, and their vikings. All of these "lock up" important hotkeys during a fight which makes it extremely hard, if not close to impossible, to get a macro round in while you're actually fighting.

I think a perfect example of this is IMMvp. IMMvp is known for his incredible straight up play. He cheeses from time to time, sure, but the majority of his games are straight up solid play. Yet, which one of MVPs matchups is his worst? TvP. Also, if you hadn't noticed by now, IMMvp is posting worse and worse results for every tournament. Which Terran actually excells in Korea right now? MarineKing. Now if you compare the two, MarineKing always has a new one base strategy to pull out of his sleeve, while IMMvp relies more on solid play. MKP does however lack in consistency which I believe is because he sometimes just botches games completlty due to "picking the wrong build".

Whenever I felt playing for the lategame and playing the macrogame didn't work, I'd look at IMMvp and be convinced that it does work, but these past two or three months, I look at IMMvps games and im not convinced anymore. I feel it's a flaw in the design because each race should have equal capabilites in the long game, but that's just not the case. Terran is too strong in the early game and rewards mindgames, using a different strategy each time, and cheap all-ins more than solid straight up play. Obviously each race should be of equal capability in the early game too.

I could go on about this forever but I guess that's it for now. Also to be honest, you look at how Blizzard patch this game and you realize if people cry hard enough about something, it's eventually getting patched. I figured I'd give it a try too.

On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote:
Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year.

A bit spoiled there aren't we?

On April 06 2012 05:54 canikizu wrote:
I blame MKP, in 2 tournaments he alone contributed maybe 10% 15% of Terrna's winrate. The dude rolled like 30-5 or something.

On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:


Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game.

On April 06 2012 04:44 Recoil wrote:In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR.

On April 06 2012 05:33 Drowsy wrote:
looooool. Protoss was ahead by a few % points and master's terrans decided to boycott ladder en masse while everyone on tl.net claimed protoss was by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and badly needed a nerf.


It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill.

On April 06 2012 06:04 Domus wrote:


You do know the stats are based on almost 30.000 games right...right?

On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote:


Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game.

On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:


No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive.

Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up.

Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled.

Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit.

On April 06 2012 04:44 Recoil wrote:
Look at the huge change in TvZ. I don't think its all ghost nerf, I think a big part is the new mass ling w/ ugrades into infestor into hive tech strategy. I think TvZ will balance out next month.

In TvP holy hell 60-40 in KR favoring T I AM HONESTLY SHOCKED.

In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR.

On April 06 2012 06:12 CrazyBirdman wrote:
To whoever put these together, tahnks for providing a colorblind version.
Generally it is interesting how these statistics changed about the course of the last year and now it looks in Korea pretty much like rock, paper scissors. And that terran appears to be favored in Korea is very surprising given how much complaints there are about Protoss. But I guess you cannot judge based only on a single statistic. If pro-players feel Protoss is strong in the lategame I tend to believe them but that is onyl fair given how often we see a Terran crushing a Protoss before the game even truly starts for the viewer.

On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote:
No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics.

A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough.

On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote:


No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics.

A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough.

On April 06 2012 07:13 Olsson wrote:


Because korean protosses knows how to play protoss. Thought out build orders, great timings, abusing stuff such as BL immobility, good scouting (which many tosses lack) and consisency things such as forcefields which many foreigners seem to fail with placing well.

On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote:


The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window.

Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent.

On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote:
Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected.

On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:


ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin

On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote:


ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin

On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:


Really? I saw pvz 57% favoring toss.

On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:


Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss.

On April 06 2012 07:45 blinkingangels wrote:


Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree.

And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so.

On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:


Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one.

On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote:


Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one.

On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote:

International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans.

On April 06 2012 07:48 dani` wrote:

In Korea P > Z, International + Korea Z > P.

On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote:

International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans.

On April 06 2012 07:48 Plansix wrote:


Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss.

On April 06 2012 07:55 blinkingangels wrote:

Explain how this has anything to do with what I said?

On April 06 2012 05:12 darkscream wrote:
The korean stats o_O

P>Z>T>P

definitely not the metagame i expected to see.

On April 06 2012 08:02 Fencer710 wrote:

Yeah, I thought it would be P>T>Z>P, but clearly Terrans figured out how to all-in and exploit timings, and Zergs figured out how to use Ultras, Broodlords, and Infestors properly since the Ghost nerf.

On April 06 2012 08:04 biology]major wrote:


all in and exploit timings? maybe they just learned how to play better

On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote:


No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics.

A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough.

On April 06 2012 09:58 Go1den wrote:
Good to see Protoss still in last by a long shot. Warpgate un-nerf plz now that Zergs are unbreakable early game?

On April 06 2012 09:58 Go1den wrote:
Good to see Protoss still in last by a long shot. Warpgate un-nerf plz now that Zergs are unbreakable early game?

On April 06 2012 09:59 blade55555 wrote:


really in last by a long shot? 55% win rate pvz doesn't seem last place

On April 06 2012 10:04 Shiori wrote:
K. Stop talking about the Korean statistics. They don't matter nearly as much as the international ones. Why? Few reasons:

1) Foreign players aren't so bad that balance doesn't affect their play. The foreign pros are still way better than anyone on ladder (with a couple of exceptions, obviously). If there's a trend of imbalance on the foreign scene, unless it's a serious metagame lag (unlikely given the integration of the scene and the amount of mixed tournaments) it's probably worth considering.

2) International winrates include Korean statistics, and there are plenty of Korean players at international tournaments. It's important to realize that Korean statistics only show Korean tournaments, not games that had a Korean participant. This means they don't include MKP winning MLG against DRG, for exampler.

3) The sample size is freaking tiny. Seriously, 245 games this month? Assuming perfect distribution that means 80 games per matchup. That means 42-38 is indicative of a 52.5% favouring for the first race. One player 2-0ing someone of a different race would be sufficient to fuck up the symmetry.

Look at the foreign stats, not the Korean ones. The only conclusion we can draw from these stats is that Zerg is ahead in both PvZ and TvZ, which is more or less what everyone has been saying since the Ghost nerf and 3base Roach timings came to the fore.

On April 06 2012 07:45 chuky500 wrote:
Protoss losing is clearly an effect of the phoenix range upgrade.

On April 06 2012 10:22 T0fuuu wrote:
Terrans are destroying protoss in tvp now? I think I will give it another month and see what happens to protoss in gsl. Last season was definately a good season for protoss and i was expecting more terrans to get knocked out of code s for this season.

On April 06 2012 11:15 L3g3nd_ wrote:

Terrans have always been destroying toss at high level. When everyone went through a OMG TOSS IMBA stage, the PvT winrate was 52%. now its 62% for terran, the MU obviously needs more work done on it

On April 06 2012 07:44 blade55555 wrote:


Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss.

On April 06 2012 11:36 -TesteR- wrote:


I see pvz 46%...

On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote:


No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics.

A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough.

On April 06 2012 07:13 Olsson wrote:


Because korean protosses knows how to play protoss. Thought out build orders, great timings, abusing stuff such as BL immobility, good scouting (which many tosses lack) and consisency things such as forcefields which many foreigners seem to fail with placing well.

On April 06 2012 11:25 Hypemeup wrote:




Not to mention every battle is always a landslide in one sides favour, not good watching.

On April 06 2012 11:25 Hypemeup wrote:


Yeah, that matchup is just bad, terrans are rolling protoss in the early and mid game and lategame they stand little chance unless already ahead from the midgame. Such a bad MU overall -_-.

Not to mention every battle is always a landslide in one sides favour, not good watching.

On April 06 2012 13:07 Drowsy wrote:



This bears repeating I think. Pvz and Tvz are totally different to play/watch in this sense; there's usually lots of frequent engagements and back and forth action. Pvt is usually 1 big battle where 1 side decisively wins and the game ends shortly afterword. Not great from a spectator point of view.

I don't know how they could really fix this though so w/e.

On April 06 2012 13:36 Whitewing wrote:


Or the fact that Terran was absurdly overpowered and really needed those nerfs.

For the record, I think the ghost nerf was overdoing it, qxc's solution was much better.

On April 06 2012 04:43 TheRealNanMan wrote:
Awesome! I've been waiting to see these statistics!

It is interesting to see zerg having issues in Korea but rolling everywhere else

On April 06 2012 14:04 Azzur wrote:
Wow, the korean chart looks crazy - a matchup favouring one side suddenly shifts the next month.

The win rates for Feb and Mar shows that momentum and form is more important than "balance".

On April 06 2012 14:27 thezanursic wrote:

Zerg has always been the noob friendliest race.

On April 06 2012 14:27 thezanursic wrote:

Zerg has always been the noob friendliest race.

On April 06 2012 16:35 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm wondering for a while now, how the Korean vs. International distinction is made.

Is it along the lines of Korean equals GSL plus KSL weekly?

Or is it a Korean player playing in the game? So if MKP wins vs DRG in the MLG final, is that Korean TvZ win? Or international TvZ win? It should be Korean in my opinion.

Though if it's player bound and not determined by the venue, then what happens if Socke beats TheStC at MLG?

I think that would be another interesting form of those statistics. If the Korean and the International win rates don't have to form 100% each, but as Koreans beat Foreigners, they leech wins so that e.g. TvZ+ZvT would be over 100%. This way we could really see how things are panning out.

On April 06 2012 12:25 SniXSniPe wrote:
Just goes to show how random SC2 is starting to feel like once everyone hits that high skill cap.

On April 06 2012 16:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
LOL WTF

KR even more extreme this time, holy shit lol! Look at that TvP ! And PvZ? only TvZ is similar global vs korea o.o

wtf is this lol, PvT isn't in favor of P? There are still some pros who complain about TvP o.o

On April 06 2012 17:26 Thrombozyt wrote:


Look at the number of games. The number of games for the Korean stats in March is half as high as the usual amount. Now split the 240 games (that may or may not include mirrors - any confimation on that?) three-ways and you get 80 games per matchup and HUGE statistical variations. It's already bad for the usualy 500 games per month in Korea in terms of statistical error, but this month is much much much worse.

On April 06 2012 17:26 Thrombozyt wrote:


Look at the number of games. The number of games for the Korean stats in March is half as high as the usual amount. Now split the 240 games (that may or may not include mirrors - any confimation on that?) three-ways and you get 80 games per matchup and HUGE statistical variations. It's already bad for the usualy 500 games per month in Korea in terms of statistical error, but this month is much much much worse.

On April 06 2012 08:31 Antimatterz wrote:
HOLY SMOKES ZERGS ARE OVER 50% AGAINST TERRAN INTERNATIONALLY!!!!

Hell, it's about time!

On April 06 2012 17:42 WizardofGGG wrote:
oh the sweet rage and hate against terran, im seriously starting to enjoy this.

jokes aside, korean sample is really small, people should start realising this, as the smaller the sample size is the more extreme the outcome will be.
We should expect a Protoss Buff if Protoss keeps losing more, which would be understandable, looking at the international winrates.
Maybe once no Terran in patchnotes lol

On April 06 2012 07:24 Shiori wrote:

The sample size in Korea is way too low to make any conclusions about anything. What, are the same Terrans who are massacring Protoss player somehow confounded by Zergs in Korea? Come on. International statistics are what matter, especially since they include the Korean tournaments.

On April 06 2012 18:08 Olsson wrote:


Statistics at all do not matter for shit. How can games that might have players in their slumps or doing shitty tactics or just failing with simple stuff really be a good ground for balance arguing? Stop going after statistics and use it as a foundation for balance.

On April 06 2012 18:08 Olsson wrote:


Statistics at all do not matter for shit. How can games that might have players in their slumps or doing shitty tactics or just failing with simple stuff really be a good ground for balance arguing? Stop going after statistics and use it as a foundation for balance.

On April 06 2012 05:33 Drowsy wrote:
looooool. Protoss was ahead by a few % points and master's terrans decided to boycott ladder en masse while everyone on tl.net claimed protoss was by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and badly needed a nerf.


It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill.

On April 06 2012 18:46 zimms wrote:


So you would be OK with it, if we only used one game per match up to determine balance?

On April 07 2012 00:03 Olsson wrote:


Yes. If both players played it out perfectly, reacting and playing to the races highest capability on an even map then I would be fine with it. Problem with statistics is that this isnt the case. Instead within the statistics there are games of bad maps, 6pools, cannon rushes, critical supply blocks, lack of scouting, etc I can go on...

On April 07 2012 00:49 Whitewing wrote:


They should just give us our old warp gate research time. It was nerfed specifically for PvP, so that players could do something other than 4 gate. That didn't work, so they came up with the ramp vision fix, which actually did fix PvP. Reverting the warp gate change wouldn't hurt PvP because of how sentries work now in that matchup, but it would drastically improve our early game PvT and PvZ by allowing us to threaten more. One of the biggest issues with PvZ right now, for example, is that you simply can't really threaten zerg much with a one base play. He simply goes up one base over toss, drones up a bunch, and hits his timing right to defend and *Bam* toss loses. Earlier warp gate would make 3 gate sentry expand more viable because the nexus would get down sooner and it would make zerg play a little safer. It'd also allow for early pressure off of FFE to be a little easier which would limit zerg's ability to drone to infinity and beyond.

Earlier warp gate in PvT would make holding off really early aggression like 2 rax or early all-ins easier as well, without making Protoss any stronger in the mid game or the late game in that matchup.

On April 07 2012 01:09 Big J wrote:


Na, plz don't make coinflip... sry warp gate expand viable again... The interaction between 3gate sentry and 2base roach/ling or greedy zerg is completly luckbased.

On April 07 2012 01:22 Plansix wrote:


Agreed. FFE is totally fine and it way more stable than sentry expand ever was. It allows for more scouting, more information and fewer games that come down to if you happen to scout the roachs crossing the map.

On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote:


No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive.

Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up.

Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled.

Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit.

On April 07 2012 02:30 Whitewing wrote:


What, knock roaches back down to 3 range rather than 4 but buff the hydralisk?

On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote:


Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here.

You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement.

No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority.

Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change.

On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:


You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. The same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player.

Except for the Pros, because they play to win.

On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:


You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at"

On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote:


You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at"

On April 07 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote:


It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement.

On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote:


And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs.

On April 07 2012 03:43 Superneenja wrote:


So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then?

If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry.

On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote:


Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game.

On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote:


A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised.

On April 07 2012 03:50 Plansix wrote:


The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost".

On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote:
So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum?

On April 07 2012 04:27 Eiaco wrote:
All Terran players remind me of Veruca Salt. They think that they have a right to have an OP race as they have been spoilt since release. Can't wait until Terran has an even win rate so I can see some tears.

Protoss on the other hand have obviously been underpowered for well over a year now (as shown by this chart) and if it was not for cheesy 2 base all ins, I bet that Protoss would have a >20% w/l in PvZ. PvT is obviously favoured towards T (as shown by this chart) as their early game is way too strong.

On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote:


No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw!

On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:

I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.

On April 07 2012 04:34 Plansix wrote:


And then you proceed to:



"invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level.

On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote:


Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene.

On April 07 2012 05:14 ppdealer wrote:


The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies.

Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing.

On April 07 2012 06:06 Horseballs wrote:


I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran.

It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

On April 07 2012 06:21 Plansix wrote:


Sadly, you have come to the wrong community to express that opinion. TL is a site that focuses and reports on highlevel, professional play. I understand you are fustrated and there may be other people like you in every race at every skill level, but this is not where you want do express those complaints. Many of the people who come to this site want to see the highest level play possible and do not want the game changed to make it easier for any play level or race. They come here to watch and learn from the professionals and try to emulate their play to the best of their ability.

Once again, you opinion is your own and there is nothing wrong with being fustrated, but I think you have pick the wrong audience to make your argument to.

On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote:


So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better?

I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me

Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings"
Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it"

"But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't

I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono.

On April 07 2012 06:59 KaBaaM wrote:


Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss.

On April 07 2012 04:43 Superneenja wrote:


I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far.

I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right?