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I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
If you hunter seeker a zealot and that zealot has charge you essentially will hunter seeker your own army.... I think the problem is that terran don't really have good tier 3 units or late game units in general which forces them to stay on tier 1. Is a terran going to try to make a battlecruiser in the late game or thors? I agree that ravens are a good choice in small numbers for the pdd but not in mass.
When you comare this with other races in the late game, colossus + ht with upgraded zealots/stalker, what can you do against that besides try to land incredible emps. If you look at zerg they have a strong infestor/BL late game composition that can (relatively easily) tech switch into ultras immediately. With terrans we cant just say, ok its the late game, time to make thors!
Currently, terrans are forced into a position where they are required to stay on tier 1 units because they are more efficient than the higher tier alternatives, whereas the other races have higher tier alternatives that are more efficient than their lower tier counterparts.
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On March 19 2012 09:39 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:37 VPFaith wrote:On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever? How many starports do we need to get those ravens? Each starport costs 150 minerals 100 gas, + tech lab thats at least 3 minute tech transition plus keep in mind that Raven can only use 1 hunter seeker per ship also Templars has 7 range of the 6 range of Ravens, Instant feedback. Problem is, its just not going to be enough to transition into ravens. with the ability to restructure your own infastructure using reactor/tech lab tech, u can easily produce a lasting ammount of medvacs/ and keep your 3 to 1 ratio of vikings to colo, while switching to produce a raven, making 2 starports isn't that insane (as you see many korean terrans doing lately, infact some making 3 for TvZ and 2 for TvP) so I believe that with good macromanagement you can acheive this goal.
You just confirmed the fact that Terran has to be 20X better than his Protoss opponent in order to score a victory in the late game. Thank you very much sir!
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To all those people saying that ravens are the answer to late game tvp, no. Feedback rapes ravens and the will roll right over you after you invested that much gas and supply into a useless unit.
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On March 19 2012 09:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
The more I read this thread, the more I realize why Blizzard takes none of the advice from the community... I've gained more respect for dustin browder, except the UI design team, blizzards doing a fine job.
Yeah sure, protoss cries about EMP, it gets nerfed in a a month or two, zerg cries about snipe, same thing, but i guess they just happened to stumble upon this "overpowered" issues.
Like i said in my previous post, the casters are all protoss, most of the loud community is zerg/protoss so i guess its only natural for some people to make ignorant assumptions about things they dont know and/or care.
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On March 19 2012 09:39 VPFaith wrote:
You need to wait 4 minutes to get a HUNTER SEEKER missle Ready Brother!
And you face the possiblities to get instantly killed by feedbacks because you need at least 125 energy on ravens to even cast a hunter seeker missle! Gosh......
so the issue is the ammount of energy it requires? I understand that, I'm putting it out that it could be possible, I would wager they would be used much more if given (almost like the amulet) the ability to be made with 100 energy (not 125) such that they ar emore viable (but the tech must be made 200/200 of course)
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Actually HSM should cost not more than 100 energy, but have some cooldown, about 8-10 sec.
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On March 19 2012 09:43 Pugwalker wrote:
To all those people saying that ravens are the answer to late game tvp, no. Feedback rapes ravens and the will roll right over you after you invested that much gas and supply into a useless unit.
Firstly, we are debating on what we can invest the gas into... "investing gas" is actually not the issue, because you'd already haev that much stock piled (example was used naniwa vs... someone it was already used) so we need to SPEND that gas even if it gets wasted somehow, atleast you're trying and I don't see many other ideas on it, id prefer ghosts to be 100/200 instead of 200/100
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The main problem about TvP late game is the gas spending. In TvZ, we, Terran players can spend the gas on Tanks/thors. But in TvP, we are not allowed to do that because of the nature of mech being entirely garbage vs Protoss mainly due to:
A: Blink Stalkers
B: Tanks need 20 volleys to kill a single Chargelot/Archon.
C. Super immobile and gets backstabbed by protoss easily.
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On March 19 2012 03:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:22 SupLilSon wrote:On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. The game literally just happened. IDK where the VODs are, they prolly aren't up yet. Demuslim just tweeted afterwards "Protoss is actually pretty bullshit." Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game. Demu was up from the beginning. He went for 1 rax expo with an engi bay block and delayed Bling's expo ALOT. In fact, Demuslim's CC was over 3/4 done when Bling had just started his Nexus. Then he poked and saw bling had collosus. Started viking production immediately. Held Blings Collosus push, managing to come out 30 supply ahead. Manages to come out ahead in next fight thanks to EMP. Loses game because he is Terran. That sounds like a pretty standard TvP with 1rax FE vs 1 gate FE, including the engi block. However, starting viking production after the protoss has colossi out is pretty rough. Still, I will have to watch the VOD, since everything is so engagement dependent.
www.twitch.tv/lonestarclash/b/312086279
Starts at around 2:34:00.
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On March 19 2012 09:07 klaxen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance. This would blink stalker all ins every single game because nothing viable is left.
These changes would be rather silly and break the game. If you look at the Protoss army against the terran army in a nutshell you should see that this is not the core of the problem. While it is very hard for Terran to engage and beat a Protoss army. The real problem in this matchup are reinforcements. After big fights protoss reinforces instantly which prohibits a Terran from attacking further even if he came out ahead. While if a Terran is down in army size or doesn't have all the pieces he needs to combat the protoss army he is very likely to get overrun instantly because there is not effective way of defending as terran. Getting defensive PFs is an option but not viable on all maps and way too expensive to afford in a close game. Maybe combining the building upgrades into one would solve some problems and make defending easier so it would be easier to remax after a lost fight because right now every fight terran doesn't win easily turns into a gigantic win for the Protoss player.
There are other parts of the matchup that aren't really well designed like the viability of mech and the lack of scouting past the early game. Also I would really like the Protoss army to be more difficult to micro. As said I don't think it needs to really get nerfed but it needs to get harder to use because it's really a problem when a terran has to spend so many more actions on micro while the Protoss doesn't have to pay the same amount of attention when engaging or getting engaged. The lack of a gas dump is also a problem that needs to be adressed.
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Only thing i i realy dislike about terran is their immobility
Hearing zergs complain about their terribly slow hydras, wich off creep move the same speed or faster then anny viable terran unit beside hellions makes me sad.
HSM is interesting, i been thinking about this and i think the casting range should be improved to make it viable.
Its like 3 now and it should realy be at least 6
It wont be to overpowerd as units also have way more time to run away and react, if its fired from afar.
It just allows you to at least get it off without having to put your ravens into the frontline where they inevitably die.
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Wow.. i was terran to the bone since beginning. Worked to platinum with a lot of tears. In the past days i used a frineds account as smurfzerg and got instantly platin eventhough i never played Zerg before.
Funfact: Last 20 enemies were 10 Zerg, 6 Protoss, 3 Random and.. yes, 1 Terran. This might be subjective evidence, but this thread shows me that theres a major problem with terra as a valid race. This should go to blizzard.
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On March 19 2012 10:12 Rassy wrote:
Only thing i i realy dislike about terran is their immobility
Hearing zergs complain about their terribly slow hydras, wich off creep move the same speed or faster then anny viable terran unit beside hellions makes me sad.
HSM is interesting, i been thinking about this and i think the casting range should be improved to make it viable.
Its like 3 now and it should realy be at least 6
It wont be to overpowerd as units also have way more time to run away and react, if its fired from afar.
It just allows you to at least get it off without having to put your ravens into the frontline where they inevitably die.
Terran have mobility in different forms. We almost innately have drops with medivacs and all of our units are ranged. Speedlings are fast as hell but can be simcitied/shut down by siege tanks/collosus positioned to protect space. I wouldn't say it is the most mobile, but we can get in-and-out of situations very quickly in comparison to other races where warp prisms take up valuable robo time (and usually only one is made) and overlord drops are an upgrade as well as a dangerous investment since most zergs tend to doom drop with them.
If terran was faster in "movement" speed then zerg can't punish us being out of position and unsieged. Protoss would have issues with our ranged units being able to kite their ranged units until collosus+range is done, and even then be able to make charge semi useless by running away indefinitely then picking off relatively free zealots without added DPS support.
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Just a thought on TvP.
What if Zealot charge was not autocast? Toss still has the benefit of charge however he needs to actually micro to get full benefit of this ability.
IMO it could even up the micro/APM required for 200/200 fights between Toss and Terran.
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On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
My good man, I hope you give your bio corps good life insurance policies. HSM don't come with IFF Systems unfortunately. While I am at it, neither does Siege Tanks
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On March 19 2012 10:35 llsHzll wrote:
Just a thought on TvP.
What if Zealot charge was not autocast? Toss still has the benefit of charge however he needs to actually micro to get full benefit of this ability.
IMO it could even up the micro/APM required for 200/200 fights between Toss and Terran.
Omg, you are a genius ! This is in fact a very interesting idea. Probably would not affect top koreans P because of their insane micro and would help a lot to make the late game be more fair at all skill level.
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I have noticed this in silver league as well. Which upsets me because i am kindof an underdog junkie zerg! I quit playing for a couple months because of another game and came back to play zerg (as i always fully intended.) I think it is all about the pros to be honest. Terran just doesnt have anyone to help out on strats for the foreign scene! To supplement this research I personally think a look at how many people look at pro games/streams to critque strats would clarify why terran is having problems : )
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On March 19 2012 09:56 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:07 klaxen wrote:On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance. This would blink stalker all ins every single game because nothing viable is left. These changes would be rather silly and break the game. If you look at the Protoss army against the terran army in a nutshell you should see that this is not the core of the problem. While it is very hard for Terran to engage and beat a Protoss army. The real problem in this matchup are reinforcements. After big fights protoss reinforces instantly which prohibits a Terran from attacking further even if he came out ahead. While if a Terran is down in army size or doesn't have all the pieces he needs to combat the protoss army he is very likely to get overrun instantly because there is not effective way of defending as terran. Getting defensive PFs is an option but not viable on all maps and way too expensive to afford in a close game. Maybe combining the building upgrades into one would solve some problems and make defending easier so it would be easier to remax after a lost fight because right now every fight terran doesn't win easily turns into a gigantic win for the Protoss player. There are other parts of the matchup that aren't really well designed like the viability of mech and the lack of scouting past the early game. Also I would really like the Protoss army to be more difficult to micro. As said I don't think it needs to really get nerfed but it needs to get harder to use because it's really a problem when a terran has to spend so many more actions on micro while the Protoss doesn't have to pay the same amount of attention when engaging or getting engaged. The lack of a gas dump is also a problem that needs to be adressed.
Im gona give a great solution:
1. Decrease Warpgate cooldown time for all P units for 10 seconds.
2. Increase a warp-in time for all P units for the same time.
Simple and obvious.
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Quite simply, late game terran units are shit.
Battlecruisers are really bad, and Thors are decent. Ravens are cute, but don't have the raw killing power of High Templars/Infestors.
The best way to beat a zerg late game is to just throw pockets of units at them (providing they went broodlords (and constantly snipe expansions, tech, drones etc). Massing into a giant ball and moving to the middle of the map plays perfectly into the strength of the broodlords. If zerg go Ultras, make sure your bio is 3/3 and praise the gods. Ultras are pretty bad.
Against Protoss, I honestly have no idea. The whole Colossi/Viking thing is stupid, since it's really hard for Terran to have enough Vikings to kill colossi without their bio melting, but then a tech switch can be made and terran has a bunch of useless vikings. But then you sacrifice the vikings so you don't have 25 dead supply against Chargelot/Archon/Storms and Protoss switches back to Colossi and the terran is dead.
They could start by getting rid of the energy on Thors and Battlecruisers, making their abilities on cooldown. Also, reduce the build time of a Battlecruiser, and make the Yamato cannon do splash damage (while obviously lowering overal damage).
I feel like late game TvZ is doable, it' just requires a new way of playing. No longer can you just mass up into a giant marine/tank push, siege up outside your opponenents main base and kill all his shit.
Lategame TvP is impossible unless the Terran has ridiculous APM and can hit perfect emps, and split his bio into 4-5 control groups while studder stepping and splitting them.
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On March 19 2012 10:58 zEnVy wrote:
Quite simply, late game terran units are shit.
Battlecruisers are really bad, and Thors are decent. Ravens are cute, but don't have the raw killing power of High Templars/Infestors.
The best way to beat a zerg late game is to just throw pockets of units at them (providing they went broodlords (and constantly snipe expansions, tech, drones etc). Massing into a giant ball and moving to the middle of the map plays perfectly into the strength of the broodlords. If zerg go Ultras, make sure your bio is 3/3 and praise the gods. Ultras are pretty bad.
Against Protoss, I honestly have no idea. The whole Colossi/Viking thing is stupid, since it's really hard for Terran to have enough Vikings to kill colossi without their bio melting, but then a tech switch can be made and terran has a bunch of useless vikings. But then you sacrifice the vikings so you don't have 25 dead supply against Chargelot/Archon/Storms and Protoss switches back to Colossi and the terran is dead.
They could start by getting rid of the energy on Thors and Battlecruisers, making their abilities on cooldown. Also, reduce the build time of a Battlecruiser, and make the Yamato cannon do splash damage (while obviously lowering overal damage).
I feel like late game TvZ is doable, it' just requires a new way of playing. No longer can you just mass up into a giant marine/tank push, siege up outside your opponenents main base and kill all his shit.
Lategame TvP is impossible unless the Terran has ridiculous APM and can hit perfect emps, and split his bio into 4-5 control groups while studder stepping and splitting them.
Nah no Yamato splash please, I like my signature Snipe your shit with a huge cannon spell. But the energy loss is good place to start, would be nice if all of our end game shit wasn't Feedback'able
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EPT
