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On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance.
This would blink stalker all ins every single game because nothing viable is left.
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Yup high master terran here. Just had a game a macro game with toss to reaffirm that they're impossible to beat in the lategame unless they royally screw up (somehow). Just gives me another reason to all in every game and hope it works.
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On March 19 2012 09:03 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance. Really bad... Those would affect high level play(korea) where terran is already doing more than fine.
Im absolutely sure that the whole world should not suffer just because of some high-level somewhere in Korea (that's not the fact by the way).
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Eh, I hope no one was watching Naniwa vs Thorzain @RedBullLAN just now... Terran tears... 4 Protoss semi-finals lol.
lol @ Jimbo tho that his way too severe. Protoss would never win a single game after that lol.
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If you want to talk about seriously killing an Esport, sorry to use the phrase, just fuck up the top level play.
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On March 19 2012 08:02 KaiserJohan wrote:
Playing vs high masters/gm, PvT is insanely hard. Sure you can roll hard lategame, but midgame...?
(p 1gate FE ofc)
Terrans going 3 fast CC's and then starts to pressure is really hard to beat because:
1. teching to quick storm/collosi makes veeeery vulnerable to stim or stim/medivac timings, it's a gamble.
2. getting a third when you see his third makes it hard to defend multiple drops/attacks without loosing your third.
3. if you go the 'middle way', staying on 2base and safely tech you are pretty much all-in because his macro kicks in soon enough
I agree T is harder to play than P, to a certain level. (which is quite high but still) Then it becomes rediculously hard for P to defend it and survive midgame
Sure defending gets more difficult against better players and if you screw up you can easily lose but attacking is as difficult and as unforgiving. Also I think that Protoss players have figured out builds that defend quite well and compensate for taking a later third by getting earlier upgrades or take an earlier third while putting on pressure. And even the "middle-of-the-road-builds" aren't out of style because they can transition into aggression, a quick third or defensive play. To be honest I don't really see your problem and don't buy your argument in the current metagame.
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On March 19 2012 09:03 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance. Really bad... Those would affect high level play(korea) where terran is already doing more than fine.
I just think Terran need to change their metagame, no balance needed actually. Like you say in Korea they are doing more than fine.
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On March 19 2012 09:07 klaxen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:01 Jimbo77 wrote:
Zealot charge must be decreased from range 4 to 2. HP from 100 to 80. Armor must be removed.
Collosi thermal lance decreased from range +3 to +1.5 (also affects ZvP (that's in huge P favor))
Archon range decreased from 3 to 2.5
That would be balance. This would blink stalker all ins every single game because nothing viable is left.
The more I read this thread, the more I realize why Blizzard takes none of the advice from the community... I've gained more respect for dustin browder, except the UI design team, blizzards doing a fine job.
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Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think?
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On March 19 2012 09:25 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 08:02 KaiserJohan wrote:
Playing vs high masters/gm, PvT is insanely hard. Sure you can roll hard lategame, but midgame...?
(p 1gate FE ofc)
Terrans going 3 fast CC's and then starts to pressure is really hard to beat because:
1. teching to quick storm/collosi makes veeeery vulnerable to stim or stim/medivac timings, it's a gamble.
2. getting a third when you see his third makes it hard to defend multiple drops/attacks without loosing your third.
3. if you go the 'middle way', staying on 2base and safely tech you are pretty much all-in because his macro kicks in soon enough
I agree T is harder to play than P, to a certain level. (which is quite high but still) Then it becomes rediculously hard for P to defend it and survive midgame Sure defending gets more difficult against better players and if you screw up you can easily lose but attacking is as difficult and as unforgiving. Also I think that Protoss players have figured out builds that defend quite well and compensate for taking a later third by getting earlier upgrades or take an earlier third while putting on pressure. And even the "middle-of-the-road-builds" aren't out of style because they can transition into aggression, a quick third or defensive play. To be honest I don't really see your problem and don't buy your argument in the current metagame.
I know KaiserJohan from ladder and I play around the same level as him. And hes right, playing PvT against a good terran is a nightmare, at high masters level there are a bit less terrans than Protoss/Zerg but those Terrans are hardest to play against, because drops are just really painful to play against and those terrans at that level certainly know how to abuse protoss immobility and especially the map terrain (little chokes etc, especially on maps like Cloud Kingdom, Korhal Compound, Shakuras where u have little chokes) also they create a good terrain for themself often with good building placement - bunkers, rax, hell even planetary's lol (very important against zealot/archon playstyle) A good terran wont take any fights until he has a good position and meanwhile he just drops everywhere... and he also slowly replaces scvs with more army and relies more and more on mass OC's.
also the fact that Terran have such a huge variety of openings. They can pretty much double mindtrick you and you instantly have a huge disadvantage. Most terrans at a lower level just play way too predictable... players in GM/High masters constantly switch up their openings, fake 1/1/1 while doing 2 rax. double expand while faking aggression. Banshee opening into double expand... stuff like this. I can win TvP at a high masters level easy just because of my knowlegde of the hardcounters in tvp earlygame and mindtricks...
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On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think?
I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
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On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think?
I think you are mistaken, if you mine more gas then you spend you are not playing like you should.
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On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
How many starports do we need to get those ravens? Each starport costs 150 minerals 100 gas, + tech lab thats at least 3 minute tech transition plus keep in mind that Raven can only use 1 hunter seeker per ship also Templars has 7 range of the 6 range of Ravens, Instant feedback. Problem is, its just not going to be enough to transition into ravens.
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On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
Casting it on the zealots would cause massive friendly fire, would it not?
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On March 19 2012 09:36 znow1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I think you are mistaken, if you mine more gas then you spend you are not playing like you should.
Did you watch the Game Thorzain vs Naniwa in the Redball LAN. Thorzain had 1400 gas on 3 bases. He was not able to spend his gas. So you are saying he was not playing the game correctly? How is he able to spend those 1400 gas instantly. Naniwa can spend his 1200 gas instantly warping High templars into archons. =)
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On March 19 2012 09:37 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever? How many starports do we need to get those ravens? Each starport costs 150 minerals 100 gas, + tech lab thats at least 3 minute tech transition plus keep in mind that Raven can only use 1 hunter seeker per ship also Templars has 7 range of the 6 range of Ravens, Instant feedback. Problem is, its just not going to be enough to transition into ravens.
with the ability to restructure your own infastructure using reactor/tech lab tech, u can easily produce a lasting ammount of medvacs/ and keep your 3 to 1 ratio of vikings to colo, while switching to produce a raven, making 2 starports isn't that insane (as you see many korean terrans doing lately, infact some making 3 for TvZ and 2 for TvP) so I believe that with good macromanagement you can acheive this goal.
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You need to wait 4 minutes to get a HUNTER SEEKER missle Ready Brother!
And you face the possiblities to get instantly killed by feedbacks because you need at least 125 energy on ravens to even cast a hunter seeker missle! Gosh......
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On March 19 2012 09:34 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I actually think making ravens would be the way for terrans to use that gas, lage game engagements what do they have for sniping them? stalkers? well with that excess 1400 you can make 5 ravens easily spread out, I don't know if any of you have ever seen a hunter seeker missle hit zealots, but it's almost ridiculous, added to the fact they missle is faster than the zealots, I don't know why they aren't made... OBVIOUSLY not in the midgame, but lategame? fuck whynot, stay on tier 1 forever?
Ravens simply can't work late game because of HT. Seeker missile also requires you get to get really close, and using them on chargelots will cause your bio force to melt automatically since they will blow you up as well.
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Terran metagame vP is a game of control rather than units. Ghosts are coming out earlier and used to keep templar tech units low (aggressively cloaking and sniping when posturing the army).
In a year when army control is s o much tighter from all players, Terran will again feel more dominate because they can snipe down templar, rush in the vikings to snipe off collosus, stim the army from all the flanks, and EMP the stalkers to retain viking count in a fraction of the amount of time as they do currently. Protoss Damage is relatively instant compared to terran AoE, as one storm+1 collosus attack can make a portion of an army die in 2 seconds. Terran can, at best, keep their army alive long enough for it to be gateway vs bio. (and then it is still rough because zealots so tanky)
vZ I think it is still an amazing game, although it is rough to play super super lategame. Ghosts still are required against those huge mobs of infestors waiting to fungal, but broods can still be contained with good marine and viking control.
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On March 19 2012 09:39 VPFaith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 09:36 znow1 wrote:On March 19 2012 09:30 VPFaith wrote:
Hmm, I think the problem with TvP late game is that Terran is not able to spend it's gas while Protoss can spend its minerals on Zealots and excessive gas on High templars/Storm/Archons. When you see most Terran players lose game late vs Protoss is when Terran is not able to spend that 1400+ gas in the bank while Protoss can spend both Minerals and Gas.
What does this really mean?
Perhaps because in TvP, Terran is only allowed to make Bio units and the only unit that costs a lot of gas is ghost. However, at the current game, ghosts cost 200 minerals 100 gas. Also because of the current Ghost nerf to the snipe and emp range, Blizzard should perhaps consider make Ghosts cost 100 minerals and 150 gas? That way, with the SNIPE nerf, ghosts cannot be massed in a way that Terran can rush for ghosts but also keep the gas spending low for Terran. In a way, it makes minerals for additional marines + maruders to combat the horrendous amount of chargelots+ archons composition in the late game.
What do you guys think? I think you are mistaken, if you mine more gas then you spend you are not playing like you should. Did you watch the Game Thorzain vs Naniwa in the Redball LAN. Thorzain had 1400 gas on 3 bases. He was not able to spend his gas. So you are saying he was not playing the game correctly? How is he able to spend those 1400 gas instantly. Naniwa can spend his 1200 gas instantly warping High templars into archons. =)
Well, he lost the game, so obviously he was not playing correctly.  I´m not saying there is a way to spend 1400 gas instantly, but maybe he should watch his saturation better and not get 1400 gas+ that he can not use.
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EPT
