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On March 17 2012 02:27 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 23:56 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:49 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:31 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:14 aXel92 wrote:
watching gsl up and down matches is just ridiculous...i watched every single tvp played in the current up and down matches and all terrans went for an allin. so you shouldn't argue that korean terrans usually win in a straight up game against protoss. they try to avoid it when it really matters. While I'd like to appeal to the point I made earlier about how if a player can win in the early/ mid game, there's no reason why he's required to play a long game... it's also simply false that a Terran rushed every game. Take one of Alicia's PvT up and down games, for example. (I think it was against theStC in the tiebreaker, although I may be mistaken... but I know it was one where Alicia lost.) Alicia put on early aggression and was up by 20 workers. theStC, who was ahead in army but behind in the worker count, played passively and decided to push it into a longer game. After three bases each, they eventually engaged when they both had 200/200 deathballs. theStC absolutely demolished Alicia's army, despite being significantly behind earlier on. And that's because he made sure he engaged in a more favorable position. If Alicia had engaged better than theStC and caught him off guard, than Alicia would have won the final battle and taken the game. But instead, the Terran rolled the Protoss with the late game unit compositions. And that's not an isolated incident; it comes down to positioning and posturing of units, getting your spells off (e.g. EMP vs. storm), and getting the ideal unit compositions. Terran can hold their own in the late game against Protoss. Granted, the final battles generally end up completely one-sided- one way or the other- but sometimes the Protoss is the victor, and sometimes it's the Terran. This is the only game you've mentioned where a Terran player took a game off a Protoss player past 2 bases. As mentioned earlier, Alicia fought in literally the worst position possible on that map. Furthermore, ForGG was aggressive right off the bat and set himself up with tons of aggression, dictating the pace of the game, and clearly being the faster and mechanically superior player. This was plain as day. If Alicia had engaged anywhere else it would have been a roflstomp for him. You declaring that hypothetical situation doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it's up to the players to engage favorably. There's a reason why maps have different terrain and features (funnels, open areas, chokes, etc.). You should know which unit compositions work better in which areas, and you force an engagement there. Note that Protoss players don't whine that Protoss can't win late game *because MC only wins with 2-base all-ins*. That doesn't mean that he (or other Protosses) are incapable of winning in the late game. It just means that MC *can* win with his style, and so he has no reason to wait for a longer game. Terrans and Protosses have both won long games and short games, and it's very tiring when you read players (even Terrans) posting counterexamples to Terran whining and seeing it ignored. When Terran loses, they still played perfectly; when Protoss loses, it was because they play terribly and Protoss is still overpowered. Look at the statistics- Terran has historically raped both Protoss and Zerg. Now it's finally becoming balanced overall, and there are going to be slight fluctuations within the stages of the game. It sucks, but that's the way it is. That being said, it's never impossible or even extremely improbable to win as any race during any stage of the game. I can't even believe this whining thread has been open for this long. I'm going to try my best not to get sucked back in here again. It's a black hole of letting off steam and complaining, but there's no open discussion or critical thinking going on here. Its ok bro. I agree with you. Protoss too hard. That's why im 6-1 now with Toss and haven't played 1v1 with Toss since the end of Season 3. Lost to another Protoss, go figure. And i'm 8-1 with terran even though i've not played them since the end of season 2. Nice try Show some stats or my statement is just as valid as yours. http://sc2ranks.com/us/1396213/PapaBearPlaced into diamond, won a few games, gonna continue over the next week. Pretty confident I can get masters in a week or two ez. Last time I played Protoss 1v1 was season 3 when I played random. See, unlike you, I actually play all 3 races and then make judgements. It's called being educated.
I'd hate to say it... unless you're at LEAST high masters on the NA server, you don't have adequate knowledge or mechanics to base off if a race is easier or not, you have a lot to work on before making this statement, much like how a ton of terrans in this thread are saying they do so well with protoss, then if we ask for stats they will probably be platinum/diamond.
Though I will say that it is easier for a protoss if a terran sits in their base and waits for that 200/200 battle because instead of using what is probably the most cost effective and deadly drops of any race, or the ability to spread a the protoss' immobile army thin because terran split armys can take on a larger supply of protoss army. Drops, Nexus snipes, Tech snipes, all these things stress the protoss a ton, it needs to be done more well into the late game.
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On March 17 2012 03:24 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 03:13 NoctemSC wrote:On March 17 2012 02:40 scypio wrote:I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done. Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore. A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand  In the end, Boxer still won because he is in our hearts. "I don't care so much if I win or lose, I just want to put out the best games for my fans" Sorry, in my heart he got stomped like the thousand other terrans that expressed their feelings in this thread and the OP poll... and for the final GSL TvP of today: Creator meets Happy... + Show Spoiler +toss goes for Nexus first, Happy counters with something like 1 marine 10 SCV bunker rush... it works out, the nexus dies, Creator is contained and finally goes for council tech and DTs. Happy defends blink stalkers, builds turrets before DTs hit and does a two base marine-tank-medivac push FTW. Thank you for following the GSL TvP clinic, have a nice TvP macro game Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 03:24 XXXSmOke wrote:
BUT There's more Terrans than Protoss in the gsl!!! Zomg of course imba!!!
...
See what I did there? Yeah, you missed the point that is: TvP late game sucks and even in GSL terrans try to avoid it as hell (or die).
You didn't realize the sarcasm??
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As an ambitious learning (top 3-5)silver newbie, here's my perspective from way down in the beginner's league:
TvZ and TvT don't frighten me. I can often win against gold in these matchups. TvP frightens me because I struggle against top 25 and below and rarely beat a top 8 silver protoss. Just yesterday I played 26 games so the horror is fresh on my mind. Here is what I think is the problem for people like me is:
Terran learning curve is extremely tough and multi-tasking intensive. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that "feels" that a protoss can just camp on two bases and deathball. When an upper level player says "Harass, deny expos, if you see collossi make vikings and make some ghosts for storm/ archons" it's easier said than done. The protoss by default makes a nice mix of units that counters everything. They don't have to react as much, it's in their build orders. They only need a couple probes to build everything. Meanwhile as a terran I'm frantically sending SCVs left and right to build supply depots, buildings, queue to go back to mining when they're done, swap buildings and add-ons back and forth, and trying to have some sort of effect with a medivac drop. It's just too much to do. I feel like I picked the wrong race to learn with, and vP just isn't fun anymore. I'm trying to watch more apollos and Max's guide, but I don't think they remember how hard it was to manage 2-3 buildings, 10 production buildings with swappings, medivac drops, the right time to use stim, the right time to cast EMPs, positioning your vikings so they don't get taken down by stalkers, etc.
Meanwhile, it feels like the protoss just sits for a while, sends a replacement observer every time I kill one(could their scouting be any easier???), A-moves and casts storm and a few shields and instantly warps in reinforcements. This is in replays where I have the same APM as my opponent. I'm not whining, I know I have to work harder and get better, but I think it's accurate to say that if I'd picked protoss to play I'd probably be a few ranks higher, if not gold.
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My frustration as Terran playing against P and Z is that I am obligated to be aggressive the entire game while macroing perfectly behind it. My opponents, on the other hand can win without ever moving their camera/army outside of their base. This seemingly disproportionate amount of effort required to win on my part frustrates me when I lose because I felt I played better, multitasked better, scouted better, and let my macro slip once and lost. There is no "imbalance" to speak of, it's just much harder to win with compared to the other races within my own league.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that this is what makes me love the Terran race and feel inspired when I win.
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I'm tired of having this thread linger around. As a terran player it is hurting our reputable status of being the non qq race. Come on, your complaining about x race is too hard at this level and therefore the game is designed poorly. BW had these sorts of discrepancies as well you can't please the pro level and the casuals. In the end sc2 is an overall competitive game that is meant for the highest level like it or not.
People need to understand that, you're playing to improve, thats what ladder is all about and maybe if you want to get higher results maybe terran is the best race for you and you should switch races. This may be why terran is not as represented as much in ladder. But its fine that way.
If you cry about how poorly your doing in x matchup because you don't have the skill to do it, then you minus well make a terran comfort thread where you can cry your sorrows in.
If you hate being agressive throughout the game terran is not the race for you.
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On March 17 2012 03:27 itsjuspeter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 02:27 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 23:56 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:49 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:31 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:14 aXel92 wrote:
watching gsl up and down matches is just ridiculous...i watched every single tvp played in the current up and down matches and all terrans went for an allin. so you shouldn't argue that korean terrans usually win in a straight up game against protoss. they try to avoid it when it really matters. While I'd like to appeal to the point I made earlier about how if a player can win in the early/ mid game, there's no reason why he's required to play a long game... it's also simply false that a Terran rushed every game. Take one of Alicia's PvT up and down games, for example. (I think it was against theStC in the tiebreaker, although I may be mistaken... but I know it was one where Alicia lost.) Alicia put on early aggression and was up by 20 workers. theStC, who was ahead in army but behind in the worker count, played passively and decided to push it into a longer game. After three bases each, they eventually engaged when they both had 200/200 deathballs. theStC absolutely demolished Alicia's army, despite being significantly behind earlier on. And that's because he made sure he engaged in a more favorable position. If Alicia had engaged better than theStC and caught him off guard, than Alicia would have won the final battle and taken the game. But instead, the Terran rolled the Protoss with the late game unit compositions. And that's not an isolated incident; it comes down to positioning and posturing of units, getting your spells off (e.g. EMP vs. storm), and getting the ideal unit compositions. Terran can hold their own in the late game against Protoss. Granted, the final battles generally end up completely one-sided- one way or the other- but sometimes the Protoss is the victor, and sometimes it's the Terran. This is the only game you've mentioned where a Terran player took a game off a Protoss player past 2 bases. As mentioned earlier, Alicia fought in literally the worst position possible on that map. Furthermore, ForGG was aggressive right off the bat and set himself up with tons of aggression, dictating the pace of the game, and clearly being the faster and mechanically superior player. This was plain as day. If Alicia had engaged anywhere else it would have been a roflstomp for him. You declaring that hypothetical situation doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it's up to the players to engage favorably. There's a reason why maps have different terrain and features (funnels, open areas, chokes, etc.). You should know which unit compositions work better in which areas, and you force an engagement there. Note that Protoss players don't whine that Protoss can't win late game *because MC only wins with 2-base all-ins*. That doesn't mean that he (or other Protosses) are incapable of winning in the late game. It just means that MC *can* win with his style, and so he has no reason to wait for a longer game. Terrans and Protosses have both won long games and short games, and it's very tiring when you read players (even Terrans) posting counterexamples to Terran whining and seeing it ignored. When Terran loses, they still played perfectly; when Protoss loses, it was because they play terribly and Protoss is still overpowered. Look at the statistics- Terran has historically raped both Protoss and Zerg. Now it's finally becoming balanced overall, and there are going to be slight fluctuations within the stages of the game. It sucks, but that's the way it is. That being said, it's never impossible or even extremely improbable to win as any race during any stage of the game. I can't even believe this whining thread has been open for this long. I'm going to try my best not to get sucked back in here again. It's a black hole of letting off steam and complaining, but there's no open discussion or critical thinking going on here. Its ok bro. I agree with you. Protoss too hard. That's why im 6-1 now with Toss and haven't played 1v1 with Toss since the end of Season 3. Lost to another Protoss, go figure. And i'm 8-1 with terran even though i've not played them since the end of season 2. Nice try Show some stats or my statement is just as valid as yours. http://sc2ranks.com/us/1396213/PapaBearPlaced into diamond, won a few games, gonna continue over the next week. Pretty confident I can get masters in a week or two ez. Last time I played Protoss 1v1 was season 3 when I played random. See, unlike you, I actually play all 3 races and then make judgements. It's called being educated. I'd hate to say it... unless you're at LEAST high masters on the NA server, you don't have adequate knowledge or mechanics to base off if a race is easier or not, you have a lot to work on before making this statement, much like how a ton of terrans in this thread are saying they do so well with protoss, then if we ask for stats they will probably be platinum/diamond. Though I will say that it is easier for a protoss if a terran sits in their base and waits for that 200/200 battle because instead of using what is probably the most cost effective and deadly drops of any race, or the ability to spread a the protoss' immobile army thin because terran split armys can take on a larger supply of protoss army. Drops, Nexus snipes, Tech snipes, all these things stress the protoss a ton, it needs to be done more well into the late game.
The original post is about where all the diamond league Terrans have gone. They're gonna be in the best position to comment on why that is.
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On March 17 2012 04:49 Raid wrote:
People need to understand that, you're playing to improve, thats what ladder is all about and maybe if you want to get higher results maybe terran is the best race for you and you should switch races. This may be why terran is not as represented as much in ladder. But its fine that way.
If you cry about how poorly your doing in x matchup because you don't have the skill to do it, then you minus well make a terran comfort thread where you can cry your sorrows in.
If you hate being agressive throughout the game terran is not the race for you.
This is the blunt way of what i was trying to say in my previous post. Each race has it's own unique style. If you cannot keep up with the micro / apm to play aggressive Terran....Terran is not for you.
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This post has gotten too long for me to read, but I would say as a Terran player it is because the nerfs are making it harder and harder.
If we look at the data:
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/103/142
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/103/141
Patch142- Patch141
29.3<31.1
29.57<30.73
26.41<27.24
25.38<27.58
27.07<29.85
31.03<33.54
36.76<39.11
We can see the Terran population has dropped 1-3 points, I would assume that this will continue. I personally feel that Blizzard is too quick on patching potential issues. Look at how quickly Terran builds are being nerfed without the time it takes to allow the community to find out if it can actually solve the problem or if the game actually has imbalance. I would urge that Terran might actually be a little under powered for the majority of players due to the high skill requirement in terms of micro. I am not saying that it isn't hard to nail your inject timings, or macro as protoss (having to actually look where you are warping in units, where the other races can just tap away), but I am saying that Terran feels harder to play because of the way micro works and the ability to stop a Terran from being able to micro his bio (via force fields and fungal growth).
I have considered switching to another race especially because of the lack of late game options and the style of play that I lead typically puts me in those games more often, though I keep saying 1 more nerf and I am out of here and it hasn't happened yet.
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On March 17 2012 05:47 TumescentPie wrote:This post has gotten too long for me to read, but I would say as a Terran player it is because the nerfs are making it harder and harder. If we look at the data: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/103/142http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/103/141Patch142- Patch141 29.3<31.1 29.57<30.73 26.41<27.24 25.38<27.58 27.07<29.85 31.03<33.54 36.76<39.11 We can see the Terran population has dropped 1-3 points, I would assume that this will continue. I personally feel that Blizzard is too quick on patching potential issues. Look at how quickly Terran builds are being nerfed without the time it takes to allow the community to find out if it can actually solve the problem or if the game actually has imbalance. I would urge that Terran might actually be a little under powered for the majority of players due to the high skill requirement in terms of micro. I am not saying that it isn't hard to nail your inject timings, or macro as protoss (having to actually look where you are warping in units, where the other races can just tap away), but I am saying that Terran feels harder to play because of the way micro works and the ability to stop a Terran from being able to micro his bio (via force fields and fungal growth). I have considered switching to another race especially because of the lack of late game options and the style of play that I lead typically puts me in those games more often, though I keep saying 1 more nerf and I am out of here and it hasn't happened yet.
This is where the problem is in my opinion.
People play a specific race because they enjoy it. If people feel the need to switch races, not because they don't find them fun but because they feel they are in a black hole, something is wrong.
Balance aside, no one race should feel like they have to work harder than another race to succeed.
If so many Terrans feel the need to switch races, even though they love playing Terran, there is a problem.
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funny how everyone's best MU is vs terran... maybe terran is starting to get more and more predictable or their late game just isnt up to par :/
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On March 17 2012 09:57 OpTiKDream wrote:
funny how everyone's best MU is vs terran... maybe terran is starting to get more and more predictable or their late game just isnt up to par :/
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units?
This is where I believe the problem is.
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On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 09:57 OpTiKDream wrote:
funny how everyone's best MU is vs terran... maybe terran is starting to get more and more predictable or their late game just isnt up to par :/ Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is.
By the time you can afford to produce Thors and Battlecruisers Protoss and Zerg have finished playing sim city in their base and are eager to use their death balls with all their AoE and cute spells on you, you usually don't survive that long, and even then you have to wait longer for Yamato and 250mm cannon
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On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is.
If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play.
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On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play.
True but it's also a limiting factor.
What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die?
How is that "fun"?
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On March 17 2012 10:31 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play. True but it's also a limiting factor. What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die? How is that "fun"?
Terran generally dont use tier 3 units because when they come out, they SUCK simply because you will lack the upgrades. Terran isnt like protoss where you just get a forge and BAM your set for everything if you upgrade those.
Thors
Why dont we use thor? Simple, feed back and low mobility and low synergy with bio units. You can no longer kite zealot with marauders because if you do, your thor will fall behind and die. They will die even faster because they will usually lack upgrades. This is why they arent used even though they break forcefield.
BC
Similar to the thors because they lack mobility and low synergy with bio units. Also, when they come out, they will be 0-0-0 while protoss probalby have 2-1-0 and will rip this BC to pieces.
Basically, why we dont use these "tier 3" unit you consider. Of the 3 races, terran teir 3 are the least defined because it so hard to tell. If you follow the tech path, then barrack unit will be tier 1, factory will be tier 2 and starport will be all tier 3. Thus medivac is tier 3 units which mean terran has always been using tier 3 units :p. What i am trying to say is that "terran should use tier 3" arguement is stupid. In BW, protoss stick with dragoon and zealots ALL game just like marine marauders and then get arbiter same as medivac for support. See the resemblances? Guess what, terran sit on there butt making tanks and then a-move and win as well. Therefore, saying terran should use tier 3 is a very bad arguement.
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On March 17 2012 10:47 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:31 NoctemSC wrote:On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play. True but it's also a limiting factor. What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die? How is that "fun"? Terran generally dont use tier 3 units because when they come out, they SUCK simply because you will lack the upgrades. Terran isnt like protoss where you just get a forge and BAM your set for everything if you upgrade those. Thors Why dont we use thor? Simple, feed back and low mobility and low synergy with bio units. You can no longer kite zealot with marauders because if you do, your thor will fall behind and die. They will die even faster because they will usually lack upgrades. This is why they arent used even though they break forcefield. BC Similar to the thors because they lack mobility and low synergy with bio units. Also, when they come out, they will be 0-0-0 while protoss probalby have 2-1-0 and will rip this BC to pieces. Basically, why we dont use these "tier 3" unit you consider. Of the 3 races, terran teir 3 are the least defined because it so hard to tell. If you follow the tech path, then barrack unit will be tier 1, factory will be tier 2 and starport will be all tier 3. Thus medivac is tier 3 units which mean terran has always been using tier 3 units :p. What i am trying to say is that "terran should use tier 3" arguement is stupid. In BW, protoss stick with dragoon and zealots ALL game just like marine marauders and then get arbiter same as medivac for support. See the resemblances? Guess what, terran sit on there butt making tanks and then a-move and win as well. Therefore, saying terran should use tier 3 is a very bad arguement.
Medivacs are not arbiters.
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On March 17 2012 10:53 OtoshimonoU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:47 SheaR619 wrote:On March 17 2012 10:31 NoctemSC wrote:On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play. True but it's also a limiting factor. What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die? How is that "fun"? Terran generally dont use tier 3 units because when they come out, they SUCK simply because you will lack the upgrades. Terran isnt like protoss where you just get a forge and BAM your set for everything if you upgrade those. Thors Why dont we use thor? Simple, feed back and low mobility and low synergy with bio units. You can no longer kite zealot with marauders because if you do, your thor will fall behind and die. They will die even faster because they will usually lack upgrades. This is why they arent used even though they break forcefield. BC Similar to the thors because they lack mobility and low synergy with bio units. Also, when they come out, they will be 0-0-0 while protoss probalby have 2-1-0 and will rip this BC to pieces. Basically, why we dont use these "tier 3" unit you consider. Of the 3 races, terran teir 3 are the least defined because it so hard to tell. If you follow the tech path, then barrack unit will be tier 1, factory will be tier 2 and starport will be all tier 3. Thus medivac is tier 3 units which mean terran has always been using tier 3 units :p. What i am trying to say is that "terran should use tier 3" arguement is stupid. In BW, protoss stick with dragoon and zealots ALL game just like marine marauders and then get arbiter same as medivac for support. See the resemblances? Guess what, terran sit on there butt making tanks and then a-move and win as well. Therefore, saying terran should use tier 3 is a very bad arguement. Medivacs are not arbiters.
Of course they arent but the role they fill are kind of similar. They are both made to support your large low tier units army and they can also recall or drop. A few differences is is that arbiter allow stealth and statis for freezing tanks but the point I am trying to make is that they are both to support your large low tier army.
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On March 17 2012 10:47 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:31 NoctemSC wrote:On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play. True but it's also a limiting factor. What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die? How is that "fun"? Terran generally dont use tier 3 units because when they come out, they SUCK simply because you will lack the upgrades. Terran isnt like protoss where you just get a forge and BAM your set for everything if you upgrade those. Thors Why dont we use thor? Simple, feed back and low mobility and low synergy with bio units. You can no longer kite zealot with marauders because if you do, your thor will fall behind and die. They will die even faster because they will usually lack upgrades. This is why they arent used even though they break forcefield. BC Similar to the thors because they lack mobility and low synergy with bio units. Also, when they come out, they will be 0-0-0 while protoss probalby have 2-1-0 and will rip this BC to pieces. Basically, why we dont use these "tier 3" unit you consider. Of the 3 races, terran teir 3 are the least defined because it so hard to tell. If you follow the tech path, then barrack unit will be tier 1, factory will be tier 2 and starport will be all tier 3. Thus medivac is tier 3 units which mean terran has always been using tier 3 units :p. What i am trying to say is that "terran should use tier 3" arguement is stupid. In BW, protoss stick with dragoon and zealots ALL game just like marine marauders and then get arbiter same as medivac for support. See the resemblances? Guess what, terran sit on there butt making tanks and then a-move and win as well. Therefore, saying terran should use tier 3 is a very bad arguement.
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On March 17 2012 10:47 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 10:31 NoctemSC wrote:On March 17 2012 10:24 zezamer wrote:On March 17 2012 10:03 NoctemSC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
It's widely known that Terran late game is not up to par. Neither is early game. Terran are strongest mid game.
If we look at late game we can compare unit compositions rather easily
Terran
Marines (tier 1)
Marauder (tier 1.5)
Medivac (tier 2)
Viking (tier 2)
Ghost (tier 2)
Protoss
Zealot (tier 1)
stalker (tier 1.5)
High templar (tier 2, 2.5 with storm)
Archon (tier 2.5)
Collosi (tier 3)
Dark templar (tier 2)
Mama ship (tier 3.5)
phoenix/Voidray (tier 2)
Zerg
Zergling (tier 1)
Baneling (tier 1.5)
Mutalisk (tier 2)
Roach (tier 1.5)
Infestors (tier 2.5)
corruptors (tier 2)
Broodlord (tier 3)
Ultralisk (tier 3)
Above are the most common units used in late game in all matchups.
Notice how Terran is the only race that doesn't commonly use T 3 units? This is where I believe the problem is. If I wanted to turtle till t3 and then make one deathpush I'd play protoss. Mid game aggression and using low tech units entire game makes terran fun to play. True but it's also a limiting factor. What happens when your mid game aggression fails? You just keel over and die? How is that "fun"? Terran generally dont use tier 3 units because when they come out, they SUCK simply because you will lack the upgrades. Terran isnt like protoss where you just get a forge and BAM your set for everything if you upgrade those. Thors Why dont we use thor? Simple, feed back and low mobility and low synergy with bio units. You can no longer kite zealot with marauders because if you do, your thor will fall behind and die. They will die even faster because they will usually lack upgrades. This is why they arent used even though they break forcefield. BC Similar to the thors because they lack mobility and low synergy with bio units. Also, when they come out, they will be 0-0-0 while protoss probalby have 2-1-0 and will rip this BC to pieces. Basically, why we dont use these "tier 3" unit you consider. Of the 3 races, terran teir 3 are the least defined because it so hard to tell. If you follow the tech path, then barrack unit will be tier 1, factory will be tier 2 and starport will be all tier 3. Thus medivac is tier 3 units which mean terran has always been using tier 3 units :p. What i am trying to say is that "terran should use tier 3" arguement is stupid. In BW, protoss stick with dragoon and zealots ALL game just like marine marauders and then get arbiter same as medivac for support. See the resemblances? Guess what, terran sit on there butt making tanks and then a-move and win as well. Therefore, saying terran should use tier 3 is a very bad arguement.
I know WHY we don't use them. I'm stating that this is the problem in my book.
What is the point in have T3 units if they aren't even viable in most engagements?
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EPT
