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Answer: straight to Code S.
hurhur
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Well to be fair: Tvp isn't unwinable late game. Even korean terrans has a lot of flaws in their late game playstyle, which I expect they will work on to get the late game win rate back to around 50-50 in the comming month (toss probably wins around 60% of late games in tvp in GSL I guess).
What a lot of terrans lack is just good economy management. They have difficulties setting up a goood economy if the toss players harasses their bases. Watch a player like parting who despite mediocore army control still manages to win every tvp. However in a few months I expect korean terran players to be on even food economy wise against bess toss players.
When that is said, when both players play straight up, terran is much harder than protoss. The problem with terran is that terran has to win every battle, which tyically requires 300+apm battle micro, while toss battle micro requires less apm (this however isn't relevant to korean terran players, but mostly gold-mid master terran players), and through the warp tech mehcanism they can afford to lose a few battle without losing the game. Terran players can't.
I honestly feel this is a design problem. Its not the biggest balance problem ever, but a problem nonetheless, esp. considering the fact that bio play is extremely boring.
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I am Gold zerg and my worst matchup is against zerg, it's almost impossible to win a game against an all-in and me being a macro player or 1 base muta, its sooo cheesy x_x
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On March 15 2012 21:17 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 17:12 Detri wrote:
I actually read a lot of the posts in this thread, to be honest I think it is because terran is probably the easiest race to make a mistake with.
It's got no comeback macro mechanic, if you forget/miss a cycle of production, there is no way to catch up like with larvae/chrono.
The units are glass cannon, marines awesome but nearly every unit in the game can beat them without perfect micro.
The only race that relies on splash which has a setup/tear down time. Moving your tanks? caught outta position? well gg.
To play well with terran you need good macro, good micro, good game sense and good map awareness. Its just not the same with the other races. I've gotta micro the shit outta my army, just to trade efficiently then macro in the background.
But yeah the trolls on ladder don't see it that way ofc all they see is "marines imba" or say "terrans don't get to speak" I don't beat you cause my race is imba, I win cause I played better than you did.
I'm not saying there aren't unit comps that are strong, medvac marine hellion is a very strong composition vs a zerg who tries to take a fast third etc, but that is because the zerg was playing greedy, not cause your race is imba.
Idra should race switch. Terran's got no comeback macro mechanic?! You can lose all your workers and still end up on outmining your opponent with only mules. That's a pretty good 'comeback mechanic'.
That is a good econ come back mechanic, but his comment was more in relation to burst unit production. Ie, if you are maxed as zerg you save up a lot of larva and once you lose stuff you turn ALL of it into whatever you want. Similarly toss has warpins, and you can plop down 30 supply in 3 seconds. Terran has no such mechanic. We might be able to mine with no workers, but it still takes at least 25 sec before we can produce ANY fighting units at all after they are lost.
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On March 16 2012 22:53 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 22:49 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:31 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:14 aXel92 wrote:
watching gsl up and down matches is just ridiculous...i watched every single tvp played in the current up and down matches and all terrans went for an allin. so you shouldn't argue that korean terrans usually win in a straight up game against protoss. they try to avoid it when it really matters. While I'd like to appeal to the point I made earlier about how if a player can win in the early/ mid game, there's no reason why he's required to play a long game... it's also simply false that a Terran rushed every game. Take one of Alicia's PvT up and down games, for example. (I think it was against theStC in the tiebreaker, although I may be mistaken... but I know it was one where Alicia lost.) Alicia put on early aggression and was up by 20 workers. theStC, who was ahead in army but behind in the worker count, played passively and decided to push it into a longer game. After three bases each, they eventually engaged when they both had 200/200 deathballs. theStC absolutely demolished Alicia's army, despite being significantly behind earlier on. And that's because he made sure he engaged in a more favorable position. If Alicia had engaged better than theStC and caught him off guard, than Alicia would have won the final battle and taken the game. But instead, the Terran rolled the Protoss with the late game unit compositions. And that's not an isolated incident; it comes down to positioning and posturing of units, getting your spells off (e.g. EMP vs. storm), and getting the ideal unit compositions. Terran can hold their own in the late game against Protoss. Granted, the final battles generally end up completely one-sided- one way or the other- but sometimes the Protoss is the victor, and sometimes it's the Terran. This is the only game you've mentioned where a Terran player took a game off a Protoss player past 2 bases. As mentioned earlier, Alicia fought in literally the worst position possible on that map. Furthermore, ForGG was aggressive right off the bat and set himself up with tons of aggression, dictating the pace of the game, and clearly being the faster and mechanically superior player. This was plain as day. If Alicia had engaged anywhere else it would have been a roflstomp for him. You declaring that hypothetical situation doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it's up to the players to engage favorably. There's a reason why maps have different terrain and features (funnels, open areas, chokes, etc.). You should know which unit compositions work better in which areas, and you force an engagement there. Note that Protoss players don't whine that Protoss can't win late game *because MC only wins with 2-base all-ins*. That doesn't mean that he (or other Protosses) are incapable of winning in the late game. It just means that MC *can* win with his style, and so he has no reason to wait for a longer game. Terrans and Protosses have both won long games and short games, and it's very tiring when you read players (even Terrans) posting counterexamples to Terran whining and seeing it ignored. When Terran loses, they still played perfectly; when Protoss loses, it was because they play terribly and Protoss is still overpowered. Look at the statistics- Terran has historically raped both Protoss and Zerg. Now it's finally becoming balanced overall, and there are going to be slight fluctuations within the stages of the game. It sucks, but that's the way it is. That being said, it's never impossible or even extremely improbable to win as any race during any stage of the game. I can't even believe this whining thread has been open for this long. I'm going to try my best not to get sucked back in here again. It's a black hole of letting off steam and complaining, but there's no open discussion or critical thinking going on here. Its ok bro. I agree with you. Protoss too hard. That's why im 6-1 now with Toss and haven't played 1v1 with Toss since the end of Season 3. Lost to another Protoss, go figure. And i'm 8-1 with terran even though i've not played them since the end of season 2. Nice try
Show some stats or my statement is just as valid as yours.
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On March 16 2012 23:48 Maggost wrote:
I am Gold zerg and my worst matchup is against zerg, it's almost impossible to win a game against an all-in and me being a macro player or 1 base muta, its sooo cheesy x_x
???
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On March 16 2012 23:56 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 22:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:49 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:31 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:14 aXel92 wrote:
watching gsl up and down matches is just ridiculous...i watched every single tvp played in the current up and down matches and all terrans went for an allin. so you shouldn't argue that korean terrans usually win in a straight up game against protoss. they try to avoid it when it really matters. While I'd like to appeal to the point I made earlier about how if a player can win in the early/ mid game, there's no reason why he's required to play a long game... it's also simply false that a Terran rushed every game. Take one of Alicia's PvT up and down games, for example. (I think it was against theStC in the tiebreaker, although I may be mistaken... but I know it was one where Alicia lost.) Alicia put on early aggression and was up by 20 workers. theStC, who was ahead in army but behind in the worker count, played passively and decided to push it into a longer game. After three bases each, they eventually engaged when they both had 200/200 deathballs. theStC absolutely demolished Alicia's army, despite being significantly behind earlier on. And that's because he made sure he engaged in a more favorable position. If Alicia had engaged better than theStC and caught him off guard, than Alicia would have won the final battle and taken the game. But instead, the Terran rolled the Protoss with the late game unit compositions. And that's not an isolated incident; it comes down to positioning and posturing of units, getting your spells off (e.g. EMP vs. storm), and getting the ideal unit compositions. Terran can hold their own in the late game against Protoss. Granted, the final battles generally end up completely one-sided- one way or the other- but sometimes the Protoss is the victor, and sometimes it's the Terran. This is the only game you've mentioned where a Terran player took a game off a Protoss player past 2 bases. As mentioned earlier, Alicia fought in literally the worst position possible on that map. Furthermore, ForGG was aggressive right off the bat and set himself up with tons of aggression, dictating the pace of the game, and clearly being the faster and mechanically superior player. This was plain as day. If Alicia had engaged anywhere else it would have been a roflstomp for him. You declaring that hypothetical situation doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it's up to the players to engage favorably. There's a reason why maps have different terrain and features (funnels, open areas, chokes, etc.). You should know which unit compositions work better in which areas, and you force an engagement there. Note that Protoss players don't whine that Protoss can't win late game *because MC only wins with 2-base all-ins*. That doesn't mean that he (or other Protosses) are incapable of winning in the late game. It just means that MC *can* win with his style, and so he has no reason to wait for a longer game. Terrans and Protosses have both won long games and short games, and it's very tiring when you read players (even Terrans) posting counterexamples to Terran whining and seeing it ignored. When Terran loses, they still played perfectly; when Protoss loses, it was because they play terribly and Protoss is still overpowered. Look at the statistics- Terran has historically raped both Protoss and Zerg. Now it's finally becoming balanced overall, and there are going to be slight fluctuations within the stages of the game. It sucks, but that's the way it is. That being said, it's never impossible or even extremely improbable to win as any race during any stage of the game. I can't even believe this whining thread has been open for this long. I'm going to try my best not to get sucked back in here again. It's a black hole of letting off steam and complaining, but there's no open discussion or critical thinking going on here. Its ok bro. I agree with you. Protoss too hard. That's why im 6-1 now with Toss and haven't played 1v1 with Toss since the end of Season 3. Lost to another Protoss, go figure. And i'm 8-1 with terran even though i've not played them since the end of season 2. Nice try Show some stats or my statement is just as valid as yours.
But making up your recent record is a staple of this thread. Personally I am 37 and 1.5 in my TvP.
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It seems pretty obvious to me. Nerf T early game buff T late game.
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On March 17 2012 01:46 Gbrlxvi wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me. Nerf T early game buff T late game.
I don't think there is a Protoss out there that would have an issue with that. The late game issues for T are likely a problem and are likely equal to the issues protoss have with early game terran.
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To me this entire topic is no different then any other valley a race has entered in the short existence of this game. As the game progresses and match ups are figured out this is going to continue to happen. It was not that long ago where every single Protoss was getting destroyed by 1/1/1 all ins from Terran. After a certain amount of time it was figured out and players can defend it now. Same thing can be said for Mutalisks in the current ZvP. Was a stupid unit to create in the first year or so of the game and not its all the new rage, causing a lot of losses for Protoss players. Same thing with Stephano's 3 base 200 supply roach build, causing mass problems for Protoss right now. Is the match up broken? no....figure out new ways around it.
I think one thing that happens with races that get nerfed / are struggling get too focused on how the other races are doing compared to theirs and instantly point the finger there. So many people are saying that late game tier 3 from Terran is not on par with the other 2 races. That might be true to a certain extent, but it is not like Terran play has been perfected in PvT. Look at what happened after ForGG came over to sc2. Instantly all these funky openings and timings were discovered that no one was previously doing. I realize that this is a shallow example, but I think Terran has just been doing some form of M/M/M long enough now that Protoss has figured it out for the most part. Doing the same 10-11 minute 1/1 medivac timing is not going to cut it anymore. It is time to figure out new timings, multi-pronged attacking, different unit comps, etc.
Each race is played different, according to the match up at hand. People are complaining that if you sit back and let Protoss macro they get the death ball and own you. The same thing can be said for PvZ or TvZ. If you do not constantly punish Zerg or put them in fear they will macro so hard and will be in an extremely hard position to beat. It comes down to style of play and the unique advantages that each race offers.
Summary: The game is just hitting another valley where a race is struggling in a match up. Give it time for players to develop new ways of playing.
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Unfortunately each time this has happened before Blizzard pushed a patch that nerfed/buffed something. Protoss were down? Make emp hit 50% area. Zerg were down? Make snipe 50% damage as before. Now is terran time to be down. So you will see Blizzard nerf again something. Once they started walking this path there is no return. ATM only thing to fix current balance is a new patch, and we all are waiting for 1.50 patch notes. They promised to be next article in their lineup of 1.50 reveal and then we will see what is nerfed.
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On March 16 2012 23:56 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 22:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:49 karpo wrote:On March 16 2012 22:46 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:31 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 22:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 22:14 aXel92 wrote:
watching gsl up and down matches is just ridiculous...i watched every single tvp played in the current up and down matches and all terrans went for an allin. so you shouldn't argue that korean terrans usually win in a straight up game against protoss. they try to avoid it when it really matters. While I'd like to appeal to the point I made earlier about how if a player can win in the early/ mid game, there's no reason why he's required to play a long game... it's also simply false that a Terran rushed every game. Take one of Alicia's PvT up and down games, for example. (I think it was against theStC in the tiebreaker, although I may be mistaken... but I know it was one where Alicia lost.) Alicia put on early aggression and was up by 20 workers. theStC, who was ahead in army but behind in the worker count, played passively and decided to push it into a longer game. After three bases each, they eventually engaged when they both had 200/200 deathballs. theStC absolutely demolished Alicia's army, despite being significantly behind earlier on. And that's because he made sure he engaged in a more favorable position. If Alicia had engaged better than theStC and caught him off guard, than Alicia would have won the final battle and taken the game. But instead, the Terran rolled the Protoss with the late game unit compositions. And that's not an isolated incident; it comes down to positioning and posturing of units, getting your spells off (e.g. EMP vs. storm), and getting the ideal unit compositions. Terran can hold their own in the late game against Protoss. Granted, the final battles generally end up completely one-sided- one way or the other- but sometimes the Protoss is the victor, and sometimes it's the Terran. This is the only game you've mentioned where a Terran player took a game off a Protoss player past 2 bases. As mentioned earlier, Alicia fought in literally the worst position possible on that map. Furthermore, ForGG was aggressive right off the bat and set himself up with tons of aggression, dictating the pace of the game, and clearly being the faster and mechanically superior player. This was plain as day. If Alicia had engaged anywhere else it would have been a roflstomp for him. You declaring that hypothetical situation doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it's up to the players to engage favorably. There's a reason why maps have different terrain and features (funnels, open areas, chokes, etc.). You should know which unit compositions work better in which areas, and you force an engagement there. Note that Protoss players don't whine that Protoss can't win late game *because MC only wins with 2-base all-ins*. That doesn't mean that he (or other Protosses) are incapable of winning in the late game. It just means that MC *can* win with his style, and so he has no reason to wait for a longer game. Terrans and Protosses have both won long games and short games, and it's very tiring when you read players (even Terrans) posting counterexamples to Terran whining and seeing it ignored. When Terran loses, they still played perfectly; when Protoss loses, it was because they play terribly and Protoss is still overpowered. Look at the statistics- Terran has historically raped both Protoss and Zerg. Now it's finally becoming balanced overall, and there are going to be slight fluctuations within the stages of the game. It sucks, but that's the way it is. That being said, it's never impossible or even extremely improbable to win as any race during any stage of the game. I can't even believe this whining thread has been open for this long. I'm going to try my best not to get sucked back in here again. It's a black hole of letting off steam and complaining, but there's no open discussion or critical thinking going on here. Its ok bro. I agree with you. Protoss too hard. That's why im 6-1 now with Toss and haven't played 1v1 with Toss since the end of Season 3. Lost to another Protoss, go figure. And i'm 8-1 with terran even though i've not played them since the end of season 2. Nice try Show some stats or my statement is just as valid as yours.
http://sc2ranks.com/us/1396213/PapaBear
Placed into diamond, won a few games, gonna continue over the next week.
Pretty confident I can get masters in a week or two ez. Last time I played Protoss 1v1 was season 3 when I played random.
See, unlike you, I actually play all 3 races and then make judgements. It's called being educated.
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On March 16 2012 23:56 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 23:48 Maggost wrote:
I am Gold zerg and my worst matchup is against zerg, it's almost impossible to win a game against an all-in and me being a macro player or 1 base muta, its sooo cheesy x_x ???
this is why threads turn into shit :/
Reduce BC mineral cost by 50 or 100.
After the vikings (and air ups) vs the Col, BC is the best awnser to mass zealot archon colossus. But even with mules, you cant afford a "steady" production of Bcs (450mins), ghosts (200mins) etc..unless you are on 5bases and have a good worker count, rarely happens nowadays.
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France12911 Posts
On March 17 2012 01:46 Gbrlxvi wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me. Nerf T early game buff T late game.
Protoss is stronger than terran early game.
It's midgame that they are not stronger than terran.
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I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done.
Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore.
A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand 
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On March 17 2012 02:40 scypio wrote:I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done. Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore. A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand
In the end, Boxer still won because he is in our hearts.
"I don't care so much if I win or lose, I just want to put out the best games for my fans"
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France12911 Posts
On March 17 2012 02:40 scypio wrote:I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done. Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore. A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand
SuperNova allinned because Creator is the better player and BoxeR lost because he didn't play the map really well (I didn't see the early game so I dunno why he opted for a 4rax late factory transition but anyways...) and he is not as good as Creator.
He played far too passive.
Polt & MKP are very good in macro games vs protoss, but they try to damage as much as they can, where they can. They have great success with such styles.
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On March 17 2012 02:17 DeanMalinco wrote:
To me this entire topic is no different then any other valley a race has entered in the short existence of this game. As the game progresses and match ups are figured out this is going to continue to happen. It was not that long ago where every single Protoss was getting destroyed by 1/1/1 all ins from Terran. After a certain amount of time it was figured out and players can defend it now. Same thing can be said for Mutalisks in the current ZvP. Was a stupid unit to create in the first year or so of the game and not its all the new rage, causing a lot of losses for Protoss players. Same thing with Stephano's 3 base 200 supply roach build, causing mass problems for Protoss right now. Is the match up broken? no....figure out new ways around it.
In TvP the problem is not with any particular build from a protoss (like 1-1-1) but with late game in general. Protoss can go for either zealot archon HT or gateway colossus army via a multitude of openings -- and they can alter their composition on the fly making a lot of terran's supply almost useless (marauders or vikings). Individual builds can get figured out -- but something as vague as "late game" would take long enough for all but GM and pro terrans to quit the game.
P.S. Protoss didn't just "figure out" 1-1-1 either -- they got buffed.
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On March 17 2012 02:40 scypio wrote:I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done. Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore. A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand
BUT There's more Terrans than Protoss in the gsl!!! Zomg of course imba!!!
...
See what I did there?
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On March 17 2012 03:13 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 02:40 scypio wrote:I just came back home from work and went for todays GSL up and down matches so I can get some TvP education done. Supernova and Creator kick things off... + Show Spoiler + and bang! Supernova goes for 2 proxy rax / bunker all-in. Well, that's one way to kill a toss. Avoid the late game - too bad I don't seem to find refining my all-ins that much fun anymore. A few minutes later Creator meets Boxer... + Show Spoiler + Boxer is like "yeah, I'll play a macro game with you...", goes for a 3-base, max-army vs max-army battle. Creator has better upgrades (3/3 vs 2/2 - chrono does the trick...). And Boxer's army does nothing and dies to the chargelots/archons. That's a standard late-game TvP I know and understand In the end, Boxer still won because he is in our hearts. "I don't care so much if I win or lose, I just want to put out the best games for my fans"
Sorry, in my heart he got stomped like the thousand other terrans that expressed their feelings in this thread and the OP poll...
and for the final GSL TvP of today:
Creator meets Happy... + Show Spoiler +toss goes for Nexus first, Happy counters with something like 1 marine 10 SCV bunker rush... it works out, the nexus dies, Creator is contained and finally goes for council tech and DTs. Happy defends blink stalkers, builds turrets before DTs hit and does a two base marine-tank-medivac push FTW.
Thank you for following the GSL TvP clinic, have a nice TvP macro game
On March 17 2012 03:24 XXXSmOke wrote:
BUT There's more Terrans than Protoss in the gsl!!! Zomg of course imba!!!
...
See what I did there?
Yeah, you missed the point that is: TvP late game sucks and even in GSL terrans try to avoid it as hell (or die).
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EPT
