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On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better.
No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea.
Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned.
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the thread was originally about how terrans numbers decrease on ladder, which is a fact.
then we see that the casual terrans have mostly problems with protoss according to the poll, a massive whine TvP and PvT ensues, to the point where a lot of posters devolve to trolls or quite hardheaded biased beings...
imo, the game is quite balanced at the highest level, all the patches were aimed at that, now that is good because i like watching tournaments almost more than playing myself, but that left the casual playerbase a bit behind.
blizzard knows terran needs alternatives, the new units scream MECH all over the place, but until that happens, i feel they will not lift a finger, because any actual buff to existing units would result in GomTvT again.
this thread of course is pretty irrelevant, but seeing the responses of some people i cannot help but laugh, any realistic patch or expansion will not make a terran player magically 1 or 2 leagues better, but when the day comes that zerg and protoss actually have to fear some terran lategame armycomposition instead of just dealing with greater numbers and upgrades, that will make the game much more enjoyable for me.
in the end, my 80% TvZ winrate is just as imbalanced as my 20% in TvP, but that just shows how warped the platinum / diamond leagues in europe are, it seems pretty clearly that T > Z > P > T in my case, and from what i have read, many posters here on TL have the same experience.
i will improve, but i will not train my ass off, i play about 10 games a week at most, so an ambitious player will roll me over on his way from the bottom to the top, but have i ever played such a guy? according to the opponents profiles no, casuals, not many games played, favor one race, maybe play others in teamgames.
now i will not wait for a "metagame miracle" those do not happen anymore, neither did they really in the past, more like a blizzard patch shifted the attention, like the "USE THAT GODDAMN WARPPRISM" patch, and lastly, ravens will not make a miracle appearance saving terrans from their troubles, neither will battlecruisers.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned.
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran.
My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better.
BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced.
The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important?
EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene.
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On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene.
Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,.
Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup.
I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced?
EDIT:
On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue.
Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP.
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On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:
EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene.
i think you got that one wrong, it's not like all players will evolve to the skill level of a current low master, it would mean that that is all that remains.
also they could just make protoss army micro harder but more rewarding, 2 expansions to come open up a lot of possibilities, so i am hopeful that sc2 can secure a larger playerbase than the elite for an extended period of time.
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On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup.
Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him".
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On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP.
Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol).
And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind.
The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him".
Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information.
1) all people who voted in that poll were terran
2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly
3) their opinion matters
Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count".
So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"?
EDIT:
On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss.
You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss"
And I don't see any koreans on your list.
When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed.
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On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed.
1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup.
2 - why would they lie....
3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans.
I made an analogy earlier to BW TvP and I think a lot of it is the same here: At a certain level of skill, TvP is hard for Terrans. Protoss has learned how to be safe and fight against early pressure, and Terran still hasn't learned how to use ghosts and vikings well, and assert macro leads and win big fights while kiting, etc. I think that most TL posters fall into this skill range-- below the top where it's balanced, and above the bottom where it's more Terran favored.
I think the solution is to look inwards and become a better player.
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France13018 Posts
On March 16 2012 18:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:
[quote]
/facepalm
50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:
[quote]
/facepalm
50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:
[quote]
/facepalm
50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans. I made an analogy earlier to BW TvP and I think a lot of it is the same here: At a certain level of skill, TvP is hard for Terrans. Protoss has learned how to be safe and fight against early pressure, and Terran still hasn't learned how to use ghosts and vikings well, and assert macro leads and win big fights while kiting, etc. I think that most TL posters fall into this skill range-- below the top where it's balanced, and above the bottom where it's more Terran favored. I think the solution is to look inwards and become a better player.
Why do all foreign pros struggle in TvP then?
And koreans hate that match-up too as far as I know.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On March 16 2012 18:11 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 18:07 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level?
Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level?
Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level?
Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans. I made an analogy earlier to BW TvP and I think a lot of it is the same here: At a certain level of skill, TvP is hard for Terrans. Protoss has learned how to be safe and fight against early pressure, and Terran still hasn't learned how to use ghosts and vikings well, and assert macro leads and win big fights while kiting, etc. I think that most TL posters fall into this skill range-- below the top where it's balanced, and above the bottom where it's more Terran favored. I think the solution is to look inwards and become a better player. Why do all foreign pros struggle in TvP then? And koreans hate that match-up too as far as I know.
Just off hand, it doesn't seem so bad. Looking at the current GSL 2012 S2 up/down results... + Show Spoiler +
9 Protoss, 5 Zerg, 9 Terran have competed so far, and the 8 seeds so far hav ebeen... 4 terran, 2 zerg, 1 protoss.
In fact, even in a Protoss-heavy environment, things look pretty balanced.
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Terran gets the most out of good micro and multitasking. Every time a low level player posts a help thread everyone screams at them to forget micro and focus on macro. Good macro gets them up to diamond or masters where the Terrans hit a wall that can only be overcome by control and multitasking. A lot of players, myself included, don't really feel like dedicating the rest of our lives to developing MKP's micro so we switch to Zerg or Protoss which are better suited to our macro strengths.
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On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea. Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned. Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans.
The poll might be a indicator of something but saying it's statistical evidence is laughable. It's a poll in a thread about terrans where the OP implies that protoss is imbalanced or too strong against terran, and he then asks what matchup you find worst. It's not unbiased and you'll never get clear results from this.
The fact that people here say that terrans are a minority on the forums yet there's 30-40% more votes in the terran polls compared to the P and Z poll should show that terrans flock to this thread and many of them come here to air their grievances.
I'm pretty sure if i made a similar thread about protoss or zerg troubles in a matchup you'd see about the same results, same arguments, and same overrepresentation of the race in question.
And at the end of the day. What do you guys want? Changes that help every terran beside GM+ players AND doesn't affect TvZ and TvT? Sounds like quite the task for Blizzard.
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On March 16 2012 17:01 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 12:01 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 11:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:21 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 10:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 16 2012 10:30 Gamegene wrote:
[quote]
Who doesn't use hotkeys for spells =_= What. Since when do you have a separate hotkey for any of those. None of the pros do from what I'm aware. Why would you need to have a separate hotkey for just your stalkers, or have zealots on manual? No pro uses zealots on manual afaik. Could be wrong, which ones do? It's very common to have 3 control groups for good Protosses. You want your blink stalkers in one group, they're very mobile and can actually leave the "ball" temporarily to harass the Terran army or bases (like pick off a stray ghost or medivac and blink back). Then your zealot/sentries in one group too. The third is used for Colossus before templars, for quick access to them. Then when you have templars, you can put your colossi with the zealots and micro them with the mouse, and give the templars their own control group. That's 3 reasonable control groups that many Protoss use. Add to that one for a warpprism, which is not that rare in all P matchups nowadays. HuK for example uses 1: zealot/sentries, 2: stalkers, 3: colossi, 4: templars. And we definitely already saw charge being turned off to not waste it or to hide the tech (although chargelots have a higher movement speed so it's kinda silly). Mostly it's to not waste the charge. Charge cannot be used on manual per say, you need to target a unit with it. Obviously you don't want 20 chargelots to run on 1 marine. Good protosses. You say it. But any random master protoss is just fine with 1 control group, whereas every terran even in platinum league effectively NEEDS 3 control groups. That is a huge difference. The fact that you need something and it's not just optional. hence why protoss is much easier, they can decide to use 3 control groups but unless they play at the very top level they absolutely dont need to. What part of that is it that people dont get? Just felt like pointing out that that's ridiculous. Your nexuses are always hotkeyed. Your army (non-spellcasters) are always hotkeyed. Your spellcasters are hotkeyed separately. And your robo(s). And guess what? Fucking W counts as a hotkey. Yeah, I said it. If you get to use a number for your barracks, then W sure in hell counts as a control group for my warpgates- especially since I need to leave my current screen (which is a battle half the time) and warp-in. So W counts as one. And those are just basic hotkeys. What what. Army hotkeys. You need exactly 1. You dont have to put spellcasters on a seperate hotkey, there is no need to. Absolutely no need at all. Control Groups, control groups, army, army, comprendo? I assume you have ghosts on a different hotkey than the rest of your bio because you want to be able to stim and still use ghost abilities, right? How do you think Protoss players use both sentries and high templar effectively? And blink... Sure, you could try to get away with not using multiple control groups by double-clicking on the desired units really fast (whether your Terran or Protoss), but when everything's clumped together or firing, you're gonna want to have easy access to units that have important abilities. I'm not saying that either race *needs* to have everything on different hotkeys, but there's no reason why Terran should have any *more* hotkeys for their army, considering Protoss has more spellcasters and more units that move at varying speeds. There is nothing worse than trying to blink your stalkers and throwing down an FF instead. Also, why are you trying to argue with him? Did you see his last post. Clearly, no argument you can make will change his mind. He is convinced loses every game to protoss because the race is just way to easy, while terran is for people with 7 fingers and 250+ apm. Touche. By the way, did you see the showmatches between WhiteRa and DeMuslim played a few hours ago? DeMuslim stomped WhiteRa in pretty much every single one, and WhiteRa lost to all sorts of variations... early game pressure, late game pressure, even mech. It's a pity too, considering WhiteRa was playing really well (and had been practicing for a little while beforehand). DeMuslim's a very solid player. They both are. I forget what races they play though. Probably not relevant to this thread. Can I find VODs of the matches somewhere? Who hosted the event?
They played a bunch of back-to-back games while WhiteRa was streaming (I don't know if DeMuslim was streaming as well), in the same way that WhiteRa and TLO or Stephano frequently play BoX's. There wasn't an official host or event.
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On March 16 2012 18:15 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 18:11 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2012 18:07 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:
[quote]
No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea.
Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned.
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:
[quote]
No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea.
Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned.
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:03 TanTzoR wrote:
[quote]
No, not just high level of play matters. If 2 players have the same skill the late game should be close. I'm going to make an exaggeration to prove you that the "balance is relevant only at the highest level" is sort of irrelevant. If a player (protoss) with a gold skill can beat a player (terran) with diamond skill in a macro game something is wrong. Ofc it's not that simple but you get the idea.
Nobody is saying "omg I make no mistake but I still loose TvP", people are saying that while playing as bad as the other guy they get owned.
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran. My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better. BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced. The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important? EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans. I made an analogy earlier to BW TvP and I think a lot of it is the same here: At a certain level of skill, TvP is hard for Terrans. Protoss has learned how to be safe and fight against early pressure, and Terran still hasn't learned how to use ghosts and vikings well, and assert macro leads and win big fights while kiting, etc. I think that most TL posters fall into this skill range-- below the top where it's balanced, and above the bottom where it's more Terran favored. I think the solution is to look inwards and become a better player. Why do all foreign pros struggle in TvP then? And koreans hate that match-up too as far as I know. Just off hand, it doesn't seem so bad. Looking at the current GSL 2012 S2 up/down results... + Show Spoiler +
9 Protoss, 5 Zerg, 9 Terran have competed so far, and the 8 seeds so far hav ebeen... 4 terran, 2 zerg, 1 protoss.
In fact, even in a Protoss-heavy environment, things look pretty balanced.
You're ignoring the main point of the complaint. At a lower level, TvP in the end game is really hard. Most Terrans feel that Protoss can just A-move with zealots, which forces stupid amounts of micro from the Terran or else you'll die. That's why people at lower leagues have a hard time. Cause they don't have the multi-task / APM needed to win in the late game.
I think for me, reading Naruto's post has helped my TvP, but still doesn't mean I'm confident going into the late game.
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Edit: No point in writing the same thing over and over.
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On March 16 2012 19:51 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 18:15 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 18:11 Poopi wrote:On March 16 2012 18:07 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:45 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:38 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran.
My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better.
BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced.
The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important?
EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. Goddamn it man. Just read the OP. 62% of all the terrans that voted in the poll said that TvP is their worst matchup, so I don't think that it's just "him". Look, I'm not denying that there were a lot of people who clicked that option in that poll. However, you're making some assumptions here when you try to use that information. 1) all people who voted in that poll were terran 2) all the terrans in that poll voted honestly 3) their opinion matters Assuming there's no trolling going on, 1 and 2 are fair assumptions. However, if this poll was 90% practice leaguers, you would be like "well, ok yeah those guys are in practice league, they don't count". So why not draw the line at the point when the game is the finely tuned balanced thing that it is? Why not just say "It doesn't matter outside of high master/GM and professional play"? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:44 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:22 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran.
My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better.
BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced.
The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important?
EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. Is it possible that TvP is just your weakest matchup? TvP is the matchup where the standard doesn't include Tanks, and you have to rely on a pretty unusual composition with tech units to nullify specific splash units from the Protoss. It's a pretty unique matchup. I guess the question is, maybe TvP isn't imbalanced but one of your matchups has to be your worst one... also, as a casual player maybe you still haven't hit the level of skill (or have hit it via non-standard play or relying on micro skills in TvZ and TvT that don't translate?) necessary for TvP to be balanced? EDIT: On March 16 2012 17:19 TanTzoR wrote:On March 16 2012 17:10 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard cannot balance this game around gold or diamond level play, though-- a classic example is Brood War TvP. In BW, there are a variety of difficult and basic techniques that a Terran player would have to learn to even go toe to toe with any Protoss in a TvP. You need to be able to wall, micro vultures, slow push, etc. At the mid-low level, with poor micro on both sides, Protoss is unbelievably strong against Terran.
My friend would do a +1 attack out of a 15 nexus with speedlots and range goons, and I'd NEVER be able to stop it. If I turtled up, he'd take a third base, and I simply didn't have the mechanics to execute a push and control fights with tank/vulture. My friend wasn't substantially better than me, but he'd win every game for a long time until we were both much better.
BW is one of the most balanced games ever. Now, as a D- Terran, I could have said "It's impossible for Terran to win. I see Flash winning all the time, but you can't just balance around the high level" and I could have QQed. Instead, I tried to improve, and eventually got to C-, a rank I am very proud of. I still lost to my Protoss friend, but I could feel that if I were just a bit better, the game would be balanced.
The fact of the matter is, if we gave terran some sort of "Buff" to help out low level terran play, in a couple years when everyone is much better at the game, Terran will be massively overpowered. Surely you understand that high level play is the most important?
EDIT: Like, eventually everyone will be playing Sc2 at the equivalent level of what Low Master is now. We can't balance for a skill level that simply won't exist in the future... and it'll ruin the competitive scene. Actually I'm a mid master player and still feel it against toss, I'm in the last decile of casuals. European terrans have great difficulties against toss as well,. When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss. On the toss side it's the contrary, most of the pro toss are really happy about their PvT. So either all the pro terrans are bad and all the pro protoss are good, or there is a little issue. Again, I don't know where this huge consortium of QQing professional Terran players comes from... most of them seem fine with TvP. LastShadow immediately comes to mind with his series of Vlogs on how to TvP. Find me one single protoss who is having an hard time against terran? They are all stating that it's their best MU (except elfi lol). And I don't consider LastShadow a pro yet. Thorzain used to be a total beast in TvP, it's the MU that made his glory in TSL3. Now he is having a fucking hard time. Kas' TvP is the only MU holding him back, beastyqt obvious, DeMu, Jinro, Strelok. On top of my mind. The thing is that when I lose against a terran or a zerg I see that he played better than me. It's less and less the case against Protoss. You can't just move the goalposts like that. *I* say the game is balanced. *you* say that, and I quote... "When you ask them what's your worst mu almost all of them say toss" And I don't see any koreans on your list. When I lose against a Terran or Zerg, it's because I got outplayed. And when I lose against a Protoss, it's because I got outplayed. 1 - irrelevant. Even if non-terrans voted you would have to assume that the distribution of these votes is even between all 3 matchups since they have no reason to vote for a certain matchup. 2 - why would they lie.... 3 - again irrelevant, first of all, we know that most people on TL are not practice leaguers and second of all, even if practice leaguers voted on that poll you would have to assume that the votes were distributed evenly between all 3 matchups. Unless you admit that there is a reason for more terrans to vote for TvP, e.g. the matchup is unfair or seems unfair. Which is obviously the case, no matter what you say, TvP seems to be the weakest matchup for most terrans, it's statistical evidence, people voted on the poll and it's irrelevant how many pracice leaguers voted because this is about everyone not just pro level or amateur level. and across the board tvp is the hardest MU for terrans. I made an analogy earlier to BW TvP and I think a lot of it is the same here: At a certain level of skill, TvP is hard for Terrans. Protoss has learned how to be safe and fight against early pressure, and Terran still hasn't learned how to use ghosts and vikings well, and assert macro leads and win big fights while kiting, etc. I think that most TL posters fall into this skill range-- below the top where it's balanced, and above the bottom where it's more Terran favored. I think the solution is to look inwards and become a better player. Why do all foreign pros struggle in TvP then? And koreans hate that match-up too as far as I know. Just off hand, it doesn't seem so bad. Looking at the current GSL 2012 S2 up/down results... + Show Spoiler +
9 Protoss, 5 Zerg, 9 Terran have competed so far, and the 8 seeds so far hav ebeen... 4 terran, 2 zerg, 1 protoss.
In fact, even in a Protoss-heavy environment, things look pretty balanced. You're ignoring the main point of the complaint. At a lower level, TvP in the end game is really hard. Most Terrans feel that Protoss can just A-move with zealots, which forces stupid amounts of micro from the Terran or else you'll die. That's why people at lower leagues have a hard time. Cause they don't have the multi-task / APM needed to win in the late game. I think for me, reading Naruto's post has helped my TvP, but still doesn't mean I'm confident going into the late game.
The point he is trying to get across is that there is little the can be done to fix that. In every match up there will be skill levels where once race has an advantage. I am sure there is a lower skill level in the TvP where it is terran favored. People cannot expect the game to be balanced around their specific skill level at their point in the game. When I was in silver league a year ago, I got crushed by terrans because I lacked the skill set to deal with them. I could argue that the players who beat me were not better than me, but simply abused some aspect of terran. I can tell you it felt that way. But feeling that way did not entitle me to belittle my opponents and say they were playing the easy race.
The second part of what Blazinghand is saying is harder. It is hard for anyone to admit they have may flaws and need to improve. This does apply just to Starcraft 2. There are games that I lose where I feel I played my heart out and there was no reason for my opponent to heave beaten me. But when I look at the replay, my short comings during the game come into focus. But that second part is hard and there was a time when I did not look at my replays and just hit the find game button.
I understand having a back match up and how frustrating that is. I feared zerg for about four months and dreaded every time I got them in a match. But I did not think the game was broken. I doubled down, refined by opening to make sure I had not gaps in my probe production and tried some builds that were well outside my comfort zone. Currently, I don't fear zergs nearly as much because of that. But that took a lot of effort, time and some pretty silly losses before I started to feel good about it.
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Your point would fly if korean terrans weren't just dying to lategame tvp, and tvp was a problem in the lower leagues and not GSL.
tvp is only balanced in the sense that terrans can do a retarded 1-2 base all-in and maybe win off of that (and is why so many korean terrans have inflated tvp winrates, because they were winning with these gay strategies that protosses have slowly begun to counter), because they sure as hell are not winning once toss reaches 3 bases unless the toss royally screws up.
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