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On March 16 2012 11:21 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 11:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 10:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 16 2012 10:30 Gamegene wrote:On March 16 2012 10:21 Resistentialism wrote:On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
No Protoss doesn't need 3 hotkeys.... when I play Toss I have my entire army on 1 and just use tab to switch between storms and forcefields, the rest of the army (chargelots, collossi, archons, what have you) can literally be a moved. If the collossi somehow run too far upfront i jut double click them and pull them back, that is all I personally do when I engage with protoss in any matchup rly. That's really subpar for a pro to be using, though I know some probably do. PvT ideally you'd want really fast access to at least blink and either FF or storm (with prism), often both, AND then you would also like to start having your chargelots on manual, and colossus need to be repositioned against specific threats. Add in an obs key rather than spamming your multipurpose CC bank for scans, too. Who doesn't use hotkeys for spells =_= What. Since when do you have a separate hotkey for any of those. None of the pros do from what I'm aware. Why would you need to have a separate hotkey for just your stalkers, or have zealots on manual? No pro uses zealots on manual afaik. Could be wrong, which ones do? It's very common to have 3 control groups for good Protosses. You want your blink stalkers in one group, they're very mobile and can actually leave the "ball" temporarily to harass the Terran army or bases (like pick off a stray ghost or medivac and blink back). Then your zealot/sentries in one group too. The third is used for Colossus before templars, for quick access to them. Then when you have templars, you can put your colossi with the zealots and micro them with the mouse, and give the templars their own control group. That's 3 reasonable control groups that many Protoss use. Add to that one for a warpprism, which is not that rare in all P matchups nowadays. HuK for example uses 1: zealot/sentries, 2: stalkers, 3: colossi, 4: templars. And we definitely already saw charge being turned off to not waste it or to hide the tech (although chargelots have a higher movement speed so it's kinda silly). Mostly it's to not waste the charge. Charge cannot be used on manual per say, you need to target a unit with it. Obviously you don't want 20 chargelots to run on 1 marine. Good protosses. You say it. But any random master protoss is just fine with 1 control group, whereas every terran even in platinum league effectively NEEDS 3 control groups. That is a huge difference. The fact that you need something and it's not just optional. hence why protoss is much easier, they can decide to use 3 control groups but unless they play at the very top level they absolutely dont need to. What part of that is it that people dont get?
Now you're just being ridiculous. You don't NEED 3 control groups in platinum league. A diamond with good mechanics could probably win against a platinum without hotkeying any unit. Your 1 single control group is fine in plat.
MAYBE you need 3 control groups earlier in the league rankings for Terran than for Protoss, but I'm not even sure. What if your Vikings miss a shot in plat because it's stuck in your hotkey 1? Well, just macro better, yeah, achievement unlocked, you're done with plat -.-
Again, just look at MKP's replay, arguably one of the better TvPer currently. You won't see much vikings in a separate control group.
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I'm a Terran player and after having played a close to perfect TvP (according to my own abilities), I'm heavily considering quitting the game for the time being. TvP is just ridiculous right now, the amount of efforts required to win is far more taxing on the Terran player. I don't play the game a lot, I know I'm never going to get good and so I think there's just no point for me to play anymore. Shame because TvT and TvZ are pretty fun.
I think that for players around my skills level (Diamonds who knows they'll never get Master), the game is quite depressing right now because of TvP. We know what we're supposed to do but it's just to hard and therefore there is nothing that we can do.
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On March 16 2012 14:30 TuElite wrote:
I'm a Terran player and after having played a close to perfect TvP (according to my own abilities), I'm heavily considering quitting the game for the time being. TvP is just ridiculous right now, the amount of efforts required to win is far more taxing on the Terran player. I don't play the game a lot, I know I'm never going to get good and so I think there's just no point for me to play anymore. Shame because TvT and TvZ are pretty fun.
I think that for players around my skills level (Diamonds who knows they'll never get Master), the game is quite depressing right now because of TvP. We know what we're supposed to do but it's just to hard and therefore there is nothing that we can do.
Im a diamond terran and i feel this way as well. I know i can always get better, but the effort required to have amazing micro in every battle vs toss is taxing. I feel if i play as well as my toss opponent i will loose and its quite fustrating. I have been playing mostly 3v3 now.
I know the game is probably the most balanced its been at the highest levels yet but i hope they can find a way to cater to both the mid level players and pros better.
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On March 16 2012 14:18 Hantak wrote:
Though i love sc2 with my heart, i havent played it since about 2 months.
Most of my friends got too frustrated with the game and have quit, and ladder is more stressing than fun most of the times. That, along with me playing Terran beign "forced" to play these "kill the toss player before 20 mins" or "kill the Z before he gets ultra tech and greater spire" had utterly made me step off from the game.
I dont expect to win all my games, i know theres always room for improvement, but when the game you play stops beign fun you realize something went wrong along the way. I think i just wanted to get better too hard, curse me and my beloved Terran. maybe someday ill get back on ladder but right now the game is not fun to play as Terran anymore (for me) i got TvP'ed till i had enough of it.
Same thing happened to me, quit for a few months because the game is simply not fun as Terran IMO. Having your only viable option be to kill the Z or P before 20 minutes gets really old really fast. ofc we make mistakes and our oppenants do, but when it comes down to it you have a thread like this where 1000's of Terrans are all saying the same damn thing about TvP. 10-20% winrates are a quick way to lose interest in a game.
Nerf early game ... Buff late game.
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What makes me sad are experiences like this: I played randomly Zerg (last zerg game was 9 month ago) for fun. First 2 games i 6 pooled a ZvZ and win (ok that dont counts). The 3. game i played a Terran and he needs 40 minutes to beat a zerg with two games experience. He was master and i was kind of sorry for both of us. I mean i can randomly play mass ling into broodlord into roach(^^) and still compete against a master terran?
If I dont play my main race with hundreds of games over a week i get stomped from random diamond guys.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 16 2012 15:38 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 14:18 Hantak wrote:
Though i love sc2 with my heart, i havent played it since about 2 months.
Most of my friends got too frustrated with the game and have quit, and ladder is more stressing than fun most of the times. That, along with me playing Terran beign "forced" to play these "kill the toss player before 20 mins" or "kill the Z before he gets ultra tech and greater spire" had utterly made me step off from the game.
I dont expect to win all my games, i know theres always room for improvement, but when the game you play stops beign fun you realize something went wrong along the way. I think i just wanted to get better too hard, curse me and my beloved Terran. maybe someday ill get back on ladder but right now the game is not fun to play as Terran anymore (for me) i got TvP'ed till i had enough of it. Same thing happened to me, quit for a few months because the game is simply not fun as Terran IMO. Having your only viable option be to kill the Z or P before 20 minutes gets really old really fast. ofc we make mistakes and our oppenants do, but when it comes down to it you have a thread like this where 1000's of Terrans are all saying the same damn thing about TvP. 10-20% winrates are a quick way to lose interest in a game. Nerf early game ... Buff late game.
You may say vox populi, vox dei all you want, but I'm an atheist. It's completely possible that many terran players are dissatisfied with the state of the matchups while the game itself is just fine.
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As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111)
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111)
You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level.
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On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level.
/facepalm
50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play
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FOUND THEM!
![[image loading]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b260/Tahkira/terrans.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +caption is of joking nature
So OP, can I have a cookie?
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On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level.
This sentence is exactly my point. The level of play is absolutely meaningless because you almost always play on the same level of play on ladder. Yes, there are a lot of bad T´s but they play bad P´s as well. In my opinion the game isn´t "imbalanced", Terrans just have to be a league better then their opponents.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play
I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level?
Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better.
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On March 16 2012 11:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:58 SovietHammer wrote:On March 16 2012 09:49 scypio wrote:On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
Well if terran need 3 control groups then protoss needs 3 as well
Their gateways, their ht and their colossus.
Mechanics for terran have been the same since the game came out and in that time terran has gone from the easiest race to play to the most difficult race to play on this forum.
Yet none of the basic mechanics have changed and all patches where minor (1 range more here, a few sec building time there, its nothing big)
Am not saying that terran is not the hardest race to play btw, i realy have no clue about that. Yeah, the terrans had just a couple of nerfs: Battlecruiser: Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8. Bunker: Build time increased from 30 to 35. Reaper: Build time increased from 40 to 45. Siege Tank: Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored). Siege Tank: Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored). Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot. Medivac: Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. Medivac: Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5. Reaper: Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement. SCV: Repairing SCVs now assume the same threat priority as the unit they’re repairing. Bunker: Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds. Ghost: EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged. Tech Lab: Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds. Bunker: Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. Ghost: Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. Thor: Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. Thor: 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). Barracks: Build time increased from 60 to 65. Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Ghost: EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5 Ghost: Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 (+25 vs Psionic). Orbital Command Center: MULE now always returns 30 minerals per trip, regardless of mineral type. ... and the biggest nerf: the map pool, which is not suitable for early aggression anymore. TLDR: terran early aggression options were vastly limited while terran lategame sucks. Wow that really puts a lot in perspectice. Oh ffs... The number of nerfs don't mean shit if they're warranted. Why are you completely ignoring the fact that historically, Terran has absolutely raped both Protoss and Zerg all across the board? The nerfs were needed.
A guy says that terran nerfs where minor and insignificant. I list them to point out that it's been otherwise. It is simple as that.
Were the nerfs needed? Yeah, most of them where. Other - like the thor energy reappearance and snipe nerf where complete BS. I just feel that it would be nice to fix terran late game, since blizzard pushes so hard in this direction.
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On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better.
train to be better doesn't solve the problem of TvP, ie 1 engagement will decide the outcome of the game no matter how well 1 side do earlier in the game(either P or T) and usually Terran player belongs to this frustrated side. I dont even wanna watch pro player in TvP except the Terran player is doing some 1-1-1 variation which I feel is a lot more excited.
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On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better.
The problem isn't with terran, it is with protoss as far as I can tell. And I don't mean in terms of unit stats or something like that, but the execution aspect of it.
There are two expansions slated to come out, so why not take a step back and redesign protoss to have more stuff it needs to do to be strong, just like terran. That way high level players will be able to take advantage of it, and low level players wont as easily. That would make for a better game regardless.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 16 2012 16:43 jeffvip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 16:36 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:30 danielrosca wrote:On March 16 2012 16:25 Blazinghand wrote:On March 16 2012 16:11 TanTzoR wrote:
As a master player I agree with most of what is being said.
The issue IS: Blizzard seems to favor the macro game by the patches and maps implemented but don't give the tools to the terran to be competitive on this field.
The TvP needs a fix for sure, I think the poll is pretty clear. In end game and at the same level of skill the terran gets roflstomped hard. As a result all terrans 1-1-1, the winrate stays ok thanks to the 1 1 1 but it's not fun :s
EDIT: hahaha, on the poll: TvP (1111) You can't say that for sure. If out of a thousand Terran players, 500 say TvP is their weakest matchup, that's still meaningless because most of those thousand Terran players are not playing at the high level. /facepalm 50 pages and you still can't figure out this is not about high level play I know that most people aren't complaining about high level play. But if you're going to call for some sort of change, you have to bear in mind that high level play is the thing that matters. When TanTzoR says "TvP needs a fix for sure" is he talking about just low-level TvP? Do you have some way to buff Terran that wouldn't make it vastly overpowered at the high level while making it easy at the low level? Instead of complaining, people could just train and get better. train to be better doesn't solve the problem of TvP, ie 1 engagement will decide the outcome of the game no matter how well 1 side do earlier in the game(either P or T) and usually Terran player belongs to this frustrated side. I dont even wanna watch pro player in TvP except the Terran player is doing some 1-1-1 variation which I feel is a lot more excited.
Although there can be major game-ending engagements, a lot of TvP is chipping away at the protoss army using drops and various annoying things Terran can do to provide an advantage going into a major engagement. Everything about that engagement from army size, positioning, economy, ability to remax, upgrades, casters, multitask, attention-- this was all built up over the course of the game.
You say you don't want to watch pro TvP, but I'd recommend you check out oGsTheStC, who is one of the best macro TvP players. He's no Mvp or anything, but he demonstrates that macro TvP is eminently viable-- and he does it consistently.
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I still meet many Terrans. Problem is I would like to encounter none because my tvt is lacking after three weeks of forced stop. (kinda around 0% win if my opponent is terran). I'm amazed to meet protoss everytime, I've got a win ratio of 60% against them on macro game (100% if they all-in). And I don't know why but all the protoss I meet are high diamond, while the terrans and zerg I face are mid diamond.
I'm a mid diamond eu.
It is true that protoss vs terran is kinda lacking, no one said it, but if you got the mindset that you will lose, you will lose, no matter what. Start being more positive, and abuse your terran ability to drop and so on\split his army.
And TvP is funny, at least for me. Now I gotta see where to find some Tvt and tvz guides because I'm lacking on them....
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The next unit on the line will be marine, you dont believe me? We'll see :D!
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United States7483 Posts
Nazgul didn't hotkey his units in brood war >_>
He seemed to do alright. Honestly, you can do whatever works for you.
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On March 16 2012 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:01 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 11:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:21 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 10:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 16 2012 10:30 Gamegene wrote:On March 16 2012 10:21 Resistentialism wrote:
[quote]
That's really subpar for a pro to be using, though I know some probably do. PvT ideally you'd want really fast access to at least blink and either FF or storm (with prism), often both, AND then you would also like to start having your chargelots on manual, and colossus need to be repositioned against specific threats. Add in an obs key rather than spamming your multipurpose CC bank for scans, too. Who doesn't use hotkeys for spells =_= What. Since when do you have a separate hotkey for any of those. None of the pros do from what I'm aware. Why would you need to have a separate hotkey for just your stalkers, or have zealots on manual? No pro uses zealots on manual afaik. Could be wrong, which ones do? It's very common to have 3 control groups for good Protosses. You want your blink stalkers in one group, they're very mobile and can actually leave the "ball" temporarily to harass the Terran army or bases (like pick off a stray ghost or medivac and blink back). Then your zealot/sentries in one group too. The third is used for Colossus before templars, for quick access to them. Then when you have templars, you can put your colossi with the zealots and micro them with the mouse, and give the templars their own control group. That's 3 reasonable control groups that many Protoss use. Add to that one for a warpprism, which is not that rare in all P matchups nowadays. HuK for example uses 1: zealot/sentries, 2: stalkers, 3: colossi, 4: templars. And we definitely already saw charge being turned off to not waste it or to hide the tech (although chargelots have a higher movement speed so it's kinda silly). Mostly it's to not waste the charge. Charge cannot be used on manual per say, you need to target a unit with it. Obviously you don't want 20 chargelots to run on 1 marine. Good protosses. You say it. But any random master protoss is just fine with 1 control group, whereas every terran even in platinum league effectively NEEDS 3 control groups. That is a huge difference. The fact that you need something and it's not just optional. hence why protoss is much easier, they can decide to use 3 control groups but unless they play at the very top level they absolutely dont need to. What part of that is it that people dont get? Just felt like pointing out that that's ridiculous. Your nexuses are always hotkeyed. Your army (non-spellcasters) are always hotkeyed. Your spellcasters are hotkeyed separately. And your robo(s). And guess what? Fucking W counts as a hotkey. Yeah, I said it. If you get to use a number for your barracks, then W sure in hell counts as a control group for my warpgates- especially since I need to leave my current screen (which is a battle half the time) and warp-in. So W counts as one. And those are just basic hotkeys. What what. Army hotkeys. You need exactly 1. You dont have to put spellcasters on a seperate hotkey, there is no need to. Absolutely no need at all. Control Groups, control groups, army, army, comprendo? I assume you have ghosts on a different hotkey than the rest of your bio because you want to be able to stim and still use ghost abilities, right? How do you think Protoss players use both sentries and high templar effectively? And blink... Sure, you could try to get away with not using multiple control groups by double-clicking on the desired units really fast (whether your Terran or Protoss), but when everything's clumped together or firing, you're gonna want to have easy access to units that have important abilities. I'm not saying that either race *needs* to have everything on different hotkeys, but there's no reason why Terran should have any *more* hotkeys for their army, considering Protoss has more spellcasters and more units that move at varying speeds. There is nothing worse than trying to blink your stalkers and throwing down an FF instead. Also, why are you trying to argue with him? Did you see his last post. Clearly, no argument you can make will change his mind. He is convinced loses every game to protoss because the race is just way to easy, while terran is for people with 7 fingers and 250+ apm. Touche. By the way, did you see the showmatches between WhiteRa and DeMuslim played a few hours ago? DeMuslim stomped WhiteRa in pretty much every single one, and WhiteRa lost to all sorts of variations... early game pressure, late game pressure, even mech. It's a pity too, considering WhiteRa was playing really well (and had been practicing for a little while beforehand). DeMuslim's a very solid player. They both are. I forget what races they play though. Probably not relevant to this thread.
Can I find VODs of the matches somewhere? Who hosted the event?
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EPT
