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On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it...
if this was only a Protoss problem, but sadly the ladder seems to become more and more a place where people drop in to spread their frustration...
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hardest race to play at diamond and above.
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On March 15 2012 06:29 phisku wrote:
hardest race to play at diamond and above.
I wouldnt say hardest to play diamond and above, but most hellish lategame diamond and above
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On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us.
This might be the real issue why terrans are leaving the ladder. The sexual tension between them and protoss players. Its something a lot of them are afraid to talk about, for fear of being singled out. But its real and a problem should really try to understand and deal with. It just not fair to them to not be able to express these feelings.
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It's because of tanks and because bio gets destroyed by splash damage. Can't a-move tanks. Can't a-move bio in TvZ because of banelings and can't a-move bio in TvP because of colossi and HTs. This makes Terran more difficult to play than the other races at a low level, and thus less popular.
Not that I mind. I lose most of the time in gold league as Terran, but I still like it.
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On March 15 2012 06:41 Empirimancer wrote:
It's because of tanks and because bio gets destroyed by splash damage. Can't a-move tanks. Can't a-move bio in TvZ because of banelings and can't a-move bio in TvP because of colossi and HTs. This makes Terran more difficult to play than the other races at a low level, and thus less popular.
Not that I mind. I lose most of the time in gold league as Terran, but I still like it.
Yeah, those a-moved banelings and HTs are super overpowered.
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Guys, you have to be honest. There is no big problem in TvZ. The Ghost nerf was harsch and created some situations, that are very hard to deal with. Whatever, TvZ is still a balanced matchup, where both sides can win at any point of the game. I think going for Thor/marine/marauder/viking/siegetank in the lategame is a good mixture against those tech units. with a good targetfire (thors onto ultralisk f.e.) you should be able to put on a good fight.
However, in TvP you might get to a point where you can't win without having the protoss make major blunders. And that's the problem of the matchup. The time when protoss hits a good number of colossus/archon at first is very dangerous and oftentimes you lose right at this point. And even drawing out the game oftentimes won't help you, since you might get into those mass gate scenarios where you trade your army relativly even with the toss, but get steamrolled by warp-ins.
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forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose.
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On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us.
+ Show Spoiler +I mean, I'm just gonna come out and say it, it's true... I adore fantasizing about a Protoss player crying and whining covered in milk as I stand over them dressed in leather with a small whip... it makes the matchup much more bearable... I think a enormous cross-race orgy is in store. That's what we need! Screw those who say interspecies relationships won't work. I can't control my fantasy, really!
But in all seriousness. I don't think you may be one of those hairy palmed Protosses, and maybe you have endured the not-so-subtle one handed abuse from a Terran, but I don't think that justifies any kind of retaliation to an enemy who has not even proved himself to be one.
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On March 15 2012 06:58 klops wrote:
forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose.
It's a dreadfull matchup where you feel like you can die every minute because of the numerous all ins and how dependent you are on preparing for their tech, every minute that goes by lessens your chances.
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The problem is in early SC2 Terran was easy to play because it was the most explored race at the time, so it was easy to hit hard at any time with them. Now that all 3 races are decently explored, terran realize they cant just bull rush their way through many scenarios anymore. Now they have to work on timings that work well against their opponent at that moment. I was a Terran player from the beginning until about 2 months ago. I did not leave because of the nerfs however, I left and went zerg because I love the ability to react easily to my opponent as long as their is enough rush distance on the map and I keep my scouting up to date, reaction race ftw!
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On March 15 2012 07:01 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 06:58 klops wrote:
forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose. It's a dreadfull matchup where you feel like you can die every minute because of the numerous all ins and how dependent you are on preparing for their tech, every minute that goes by lessens your chances.
Please let me know if this is a stupid question but... why can't you just scout? I mean, Terran is the race that can wall off and force Protoss to go fast robo for observer or hallucination for a phoenix scout, right? Terran can scan to check out the tech or get a gateway count, or just put on a tiny bit of pressure to force all the units to the front (to check out the current unit composition). Often times, the best that Protoss can see without a fast air scout is... bunkers and depots, as that's what at the front door when a little Protoss pressure is applied. Protoss has to commit more to "poking up" if they want to see anything else.
I do agree with you that you depend relatively heavily on preparing against colossi (need the right number of vikings) and high templar (need the right number of ghosts), although ghosts are never bad to get in general. But do at least note that massing bio and medivacs- the crux of your army- with the proper upgrades and researched abilities- do extremely well against the crux of the Protoss army (the non-spellcaster gateway units). So if you can properly account for the "special" Protoss units, you're fine, in the same way that Protoss needs to find a way to account for the "special" Terran units. Ball's in your court a bit more than you're letting on, I think.
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On March 15 2012 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us. This might be the real issue why terrans are leaving the ladder. The sexual tension between them and protoss players. Its something a lot of them are afraid to talk about, for fear of being singled out. But its real and a problem should really try to understand and deal with. It just not fair to them to not be able to express these feelings.
If someone would have told me this thread was going to turn sexual 40 pages ago, I'd call you a liar.
>.> *facepalm*
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On March 15 2012 07:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:01 Recognizable wrote:On March 15 2012 06:58 klops wrote:
forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose. It's a dreadfull matchup where you feel like you can die every minute because of the numerous all ins and how dependent you are on preparing for their tech, every minute that goes by lessens your chances. Please let me know if this is a stupid question but... why can't you just scout? I mean, Terran is the race that can wall off and force Protoss to go fast robo for observer or hallucination for a phoenix scout, right? Terran can scan to check out the tech or get a gateway count, or just put on a tiny bit of pressure to force all the units to the front (to check out the current unit composition). Often times, the best that Protoss can see without a fast air scout is... bunkers and depots, as that's what at the front door when a little Protoss pressure is applied. Protoss has to commit more to "poking up" if they want to see anything else. I do agree with you that you depend relatively heavily on preparing against colossi (need the right number of vikings) and high templar (need the right number of ghosts), although ghosts are never bad to get in general. But do at least note that massing bio and medivacs- the crux of your army- with the proper upgrades and researched abilities- do extremely well against the crux of the Protoss army (the non-spellcaster gateway units). So if you can properly account for the "special" Protoss units, you're fine, in the same way that Protoss needs to find a way to account for the "special" Terran units. Ball's in your court a bit more than you're letting on, I think.
Reacting to VR all-ins, Immortal timings, Colossus or HT play, etc. all requires vastly different reactions.
With the various amount of nerfs that Terran has received, there are literally 2 timings you worry about as a P player and that's about it. I say this as a Protoss player also.
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On March 15 2012 07:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:01 Recognizable wrote:On March 15 2012 06:58 klops wrote:
forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose. It's a dreadfull matchup where you feel like you can die every minute because of the numerous all ins and how dependent you are on preparing for their tech, every minute that goes by lessens your chances. Please let me know if this is a stupid question but... why can't you just scout? I mean, Terran is the race that can wall off and force Protoss to go fast robo for observer or hallucination for a phoenix scout, right? Terran can scan to check out the tech or get a gateway count, or just put on a tiny bit of pressure to force all the units to the front (to check out the current unit composition). Often times, the best that Protoss can see without a fast air scout is... bunkers and depots, as that's what at the front door when a little Protoss pressure is applied. Protoss has to commit more to "poking up" if they want to see anything else. I do agree with you that you depend relatively heavily on preparing against colossi (need the right number of vikings) and high templar (need the right number of ghosts), although ghosts are never bad to get in general. But do at least note that massing bio and medivacs- the crux of your army- with the proper upgrades and researched abilities- do extremely well against the crux of the Protoss army (the non-spellcaster gateway units). So if you can properly account for the "special" Protoss units, you're fine, in the same way that Protoss needs to find a way to account for the "special" Terran units. Ball's in your court a bit more than you're letting on, I think.
It's not a question of scouting, the main problem is that tech switches are way easier than in BW in SC2. It's basically the same whine the zerg had during a long time (or the same whine toss had about terran for a while too) until Blizzard fixed it with buff/nerf and people got used to timings. You could scout, but with warp gate and how easy it is to tech switch, you can easily miss the timing.
Not saying it's imba at all, we zerg dealt with it (with buff), learning timings and such, but it's just too random, which makes it frustrating, and push people to stop playing (just like protoss who wanted to stop when they had to ask themselves wheither they were going to have a banshee timing, a drop, a fast expand push or a 1/1/1 coming at them, and then blizzard nerfed terran).
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I am here, but I cant be arsed to login and play. It´s boring. The only way I can beat P is if I do the "SpecialisT banshee+raven+marine+scv allin". And I get TvP 70% of the time. Funny thing is I got about 75% TvP winratio this season, but thats just because I only cheese now.
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On March 15 2012 07:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:01 Recognizable wrote:On March 15 2012 06:58 klops wrote:
forget if i posted
tvp makes me not want to ladder
imbalances aside - it's just not fun, win or lose. It's a dreadfull matchup where you feel like you can die every minute because of the numerous all ins and how dependent you are on preparing for their tech, every minute that goes by lessens your chances. Please let me know if this is a stupid question but... why can't you just scout? I mean, Terran is the race that can wall off and force Protoss to go fast robo for observer or hallucination for a phoenix scout, right? Terran can scan to check out the tech or get a gateway count, or just put on a tiny bit of pressure to force all the units to the front (to check out the current unit composition). Often times, the best that Protoss can see without a fast air scout is... bunkers and depots, as that's what at the front door when a little Protoss pressure is applied. Protoss has to commit more to "poking up" if they want to see anything else. I do agree with you that you depend relatively heavily on preparing against colossi (need the right number of vikings) and high templar (need the right number of ghosts), although ghosts are never bad to get in general. But do at least note that massing bio and medivacs- the crux of your army- with the proper upgrades and researched abilities- do extremely well against the crux of the Protoss army (the non-spellcaster gateway units). So if you can properly account for the "special" Protoss units, you're fine, in the same way that Protoss needs to find a way to account for the "special" Terran units. Ball's in your court a bit more than you're letting on, I think.
It's extremely difficult to scout certain all-ins.
Say you scan and see 3 gate and a robo but no unit. Now this could either be 3 gate immortal all-in, 3/4 gate warp prism all-in or 1 base collossus all-in. You don't know if you scan revealed every tech building or of the protoss has something proxied. It's easier to scout terran because we don't have a "robotics-bay" like building that we can hide somewhere to disguise our tech.
If I want to beat mass immortal all-ins I need constant marine production and don't want to tech too much, same goes for warp prism all-ins, however against 1 base collossus, I want fast tech and vikings.... it is more based on luck than anything.
And what if you scan and only see 3 gates? Now this could be pretty much anything... 3 gate void ray, immortal, collossus, etc.. 3 gate void ray you want a bunker on the highground, but you dont want to do that against collossus or immotal all-ins. It's really hard to read sometimes, and I personally explained this many times now, scan is NOT a reliable way of scouting unless your assumption is that you always know exactly where your opponent builds all his tech buildings... which is impossible... unless you have maphacks, in which case you don't need to scan anyway.
And what all-ins does terran have that protoss needs to be "really" scared of? The way I see it, I need to make exactly 3 decisions to survive as protoss. 1. is he fast expoing yes/no 2. is he 2 raxing yes/no 3. is he 1/1/1ing. Anything else is pretty much irrelevant. As soon as I know 1 I can definitively rule out 2 or 3, if I know it's 2 I can rule out 1 and 3 and if I know it's 3 I can definitively rule out 1 and 2. However, as a terran, knowing that my opponent is not expoing is only half the deal, even scouting 3 gates and a robo doesn't let me conclude which build I'm facing.
And realistically.. what difference does it make for a protoss if the terran 1 gate expands or 1/1/1s? if you know he's not 2 raxing (say you scout with zealot and stalker and see no add-on on the barracks) then you are pretty much set to go 1 gate expo against either build. The only real distinction you have to make until you have observers is 2rax or expo/111 2 rax, you can hold with 1 gate expo, but it's hard, agaisnt expo or 111 you even want to 1 gate expo. The only "build" that really beats early protoss expos is 3 rax marine scv all-ins, which is very easy to scout (misses several scvs, no gas, no command center on the low ground, granted that doesn't automatically mean its all-in, but it's another indicator once you have scouted a lack of scvs.). There really isn't all that much a protoss player has to worry about in the very earlygame, in fact statistically, early game is when P is stronger than T, it's only midgame that sort of saves terran in TvP as lategame is heavily P favored aswell. (playhem statistics/MLG stats)
edit: And scouting by pressuring the protoss is pretty much a non-option. If you 1 rax expand, you dont have enough units at any point in the early game to pressure the protoss and even if that was the case, without stim marines get outrun by stalkers and can't do anything about forcefields, so if you want to lose your entire army, fine go ahead and "pressure" with a few marines, but what's it really going to achieve, you throw units away and fall behind against everything, be it all-ins or macro game. You can't do that at all.
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On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us.
Pretty typical condescending reply from a position of entitlement. Why are you posting in this thread if you are only here to belittle people?
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On March 15 2012 07:31 cellblock wrote:
I am here, but I cant be arsed to login and play. It´s boring. The only way I can beat P is if I do the "SpecialisT banshee+raven+marine+scv allin". And I get TvP 70% of the time. Funny thing is I got about 75% TvP winratio this season, but thats just because I only cheese now.
Maybe then it's time to sit down with a Protoss practice partner of your level, and practice a bit. Often for me, one of my matchups will fall behind the others because I'll get better. Like, I'll get better at say TvP and TvT, so my MMR rises, and suddenly I can't win TvZ because I'm still playing at a low MMR in TvZ but I'm against higher MMR players. When this happens I need to sit down and work on my TvZ to bring it up to speed. Try spamming games for a few hours with a practice partner and narrow down on your weaknesses in the mid/late-game, as you seem to have them.
On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle.
Really? I haven't heard IMMvp complaining. I seem to recall LastShadow saying that TvP is not only balanced, but Terran Favored. I watch Jinro's stream and when he loses a game of TvP, I don't see him rage, I see him watch the replay and look for his mistakes.
And... even if Protoss DID have some sort of advantage, it's still irrelevant for people like you and I who aren't at the top level because we can still get better pretty easily. Now, you claim to be a GM player, so maybe for you it's a different story. Maybe you can't get better. But for the vast majority of players, you can simply work on improving.
And, regarding Terrans not going past 1-2 bases vs Toss... let me refer you to + Show Spoiler [GSL 2012 Season 2 up/downs] +oGsTheStC, and MaruPrime, who both outplayed a couple toss players to emerge victorious. JYP and Alicia aren't lightweights, and oGsTheStC played the same straight-up hard-core macro games he always does. The man even went 14 CC once IIRC.
On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran. Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment. Okay, maybe top GM too, I don't know about this level but I think you stabilize your position in GM easier if you play odd timings and strategies.
I've given you examples of nonstandard protoss play at my level, mid-master, and I've given you examples of it at the very top of the ladder. You can make all the excuses you want, but it seems to me that Protoss has a variety of options to play. Perhaps you exist in some "island of turtle" between top GM and Mid Master, but I think perhaps you've closed your mind to the beauty of the PvT matchup. I also believe you have "shifted the goalposts" on me several times. Is there no evidence that could possibly persuade you?
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i like turtles
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EPT
