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On March 14 2012 22:52 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And alot of top Zerg voiced how ridiculous the ZvX matchup is. And alot of top Protoss voiced how ridiculous the PvX matchup is. Watch the GSL, top protoss are still losing to simple 1-1-1 timing pushes. See, i can do this too. I don't actually believe what i wrote, becuase it's biased to the point of being stupid. So terrans don't go past 1-2 bases yet i remember Puma being the one up a base on MC in nearly every game at the IEM finals. Many of you are just way to invested in this and it makes it impossible to have an constructive argument.
And PumA lost? Makes sense.
Also, so what if protoss are still losing to 1-1-1? It's about the only strategy left which garners any sort of success. Might as well coinflip for the win, because that's better odds for Terran than playing a standard game and losing 9/10.
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On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle.
And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won.
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On March 14 2012 22:56 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:52 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT:
[quote]
If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke.
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And alot of top Zerg voiced how ridiculous the ZvX matchup is. And alot of top Protoss voiced how ridiculous the PvX matchup is. Watch the GSL, top protoss are still losing to simple 1-1-1 timing pushes. See, i can do this too. I don't actually believe what i wrote, becuase it's biased to the point of being stupid. So terrans don't go past 1-2 bases yet i remember Puma being the one up a base on MC in nearly every game at the IEM finals. Many of you are just way to invested in this and it makes it impossible to have an constructive argument. And PumA lost? Makes sense. Also, so what if protoss are still losing to 1-1-1? It's about the only strategy left which garners any sort of success. Might as well coinflip for the win, because that's better odds for Terran than playing a standard game and losing 9/10.
Yeah PumA lost in a close finals against the best performing protoss thus far in SC2. You're such a whiny defeatist little crybaby i should just not open this thread again, but seing all these whiny posts makes my fingers itch.
I've seen it in every single MMO i've played, i've seen it since SC2 beta, and it's always the same shit just different races/classes making the claims. Always a defeatist attitude, always heavily exaggerating one side of the coin, and always downplaying the skill of the opponent.
User was warned for this post
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On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won.
Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice!
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On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT:
[quote]
If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke.
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice!
Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub"
Keep on trucking, dude! 
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On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:
EDIT:[quote]
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude!
You haven't made a single constructive post defending protoss. All you can say if that we're "crybabies" as if that invalidates anything we've said. Take your own advice and check out of this thread because you haven't contributed anything.
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On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:
EDIT:[quote]
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude!
On that sour note, I am heartbroken at how terribly Alicia handled his 3-0 position in the group. You can't disregard how unforgiving it is to make a bad decision as Protoss.
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On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine.
the reason i started with protoss in the first place  , but I like the race the most anyway
I used to play random but finally settled on protoss as I enjoyed it the most, I like going into a game where I feel comfortable in the lategame potential of that race and feeling confident going for a lategame macro victory.
Any protoss players who claim their race isn't the simplest to pick up and play are in denial. This does not make it imbalanced and it doesn't mean you can't be a good protoss player....at the same time for someone who likes playing terran what does it matter that you're lower on a ladder than someone who plays slower than you, or maybe is worse at multitasking, is it really that important to you?
sc2 players seem to care about ladder so much compared to bw. as you say the differential existed in brood war as well yet I never experienced half the balance whining. I cannot remember a bw player ending a game qqing about protoss (although that may just be a side-effect of them seeming to be on average better mannered anyway)
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On March 14 2012 23:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance."
Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude! You haven't made a single constructive post defending protoss. All you can say if that we're "crybabies" as if that invalidates anything we've said. Take your own advice and check out of this thread because you haven't contributed anything.
You know what invalidates everything you've said? That your a blatant balance whiner, and that the race you are crying over being so hard and weak is obviously the race you play yourself. Why should anyone care what any of you say when so much of it is based on subjective bullshit and exaggerations?
And i did make a constructive post about the fact that the op statistics on terrans dissapearing from ladder doesn't fit with sc2ranks stats compared to 13-14 months ago. But that went totally ignored because no one wants to argue anything but the fact that terran can't win against protoss.
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On March 14 2012 23:13 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:07 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
[quote]
I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it.
That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect?
Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude! You haven't made a single constructive post defending protoss. All you can say if that we're "crybabies" as if that invalidates anything we've said. Take your own advice and check out of this thread because you haven't contributed anything. You know what invalidates everything you've said? That your a blatant balance whiner, and that the race you are crying over being so hard and weak is obviously the race you play yourself. Why should anyone care what any of you say when so much of it is based on subjective bullshit and exaggerations?
Another meaningless post, done with you as you obviously have nothing noteworthy to say. Disregard the fact that I play random. Disregard the fact that multiple high level players have said exactly what I and others have said, after playing both protoss and terran. I feel a little sorry for you b/c it's painfully obvious you can't actually respond to any of the points made and you're just sticking to the only thing you got, personal attacks.
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On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT:
[quote]
If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke.
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice!
theStC made sure he engaged in a place where he'd have the positional advantage. That's the point of the game. Vikings have decently long range. You take potshots on colossi with them. You cause Protoss to reconfigure the army so that the important units (colossi, HTs, etc.) don't get shot down by vikings or sniped/ EMPed so easily.
How is it that if Protoss gets rolled by Terran, it's because the Protoss player played like shit, but if Terran gets rolled by Protoss, it's because Terran can't beat Protoss? And- most laughably- when historically the data shows that TvP has been favoring Terran for nearly the entire time SC2 has been out (and only recently has there been some proper balancing and Protoss success)?
theStC and Alicia both had armies that could kill one another. theStC engaged better in the end, and so he won. I think Alicia could have possibly won if he had out-positioned theStC in the final engagement... and that's the way it should be.
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On March 14 2012 23:17 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:13 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:07 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build.
As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games.
I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again.
When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost.
My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours.
EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude! You haven't made a single constructive post defending protoss. All you can say if that we're "crybabies" as if that invalidates anything we've said. Take your own advice and check out of this thread because you haven't contributed anything. You know what invalidates everything you've said? That your a blatant balance whiner, and that the race you are crying over being so hard and weak is obviously the race you play yourself. Why should anyone care what any of you say when so much of it is based on subjective bullshit and exaggerations? Another meaningless post, done with you as you obviously have nothing noteworthy to say. Disregard the fact that I play random. Disregard the fact that multiple high level players have said exactly what I and others have said, after playing both protoss and terran. I feel a little sorry for you b/c it's painfully obvious you can't actually respond to any of the points made and you're just sticking to the only thing you got, personal attacks.
Oh get of your high horse. There's been as many high level players that say they do well with terran as with protoss/zerg, players that have actually linked their profiles AND replays. People HAVE responded to most points but it wont matter because it's disregarded automatically by either you or some other emotionally invested terran player.
OP linked to sc2ranks to make a point about terran disapearing from ladder, i've shown (from the same source) that terran haven't lost more than a few percent in the last 13-14 months. So it seems like we're not looking at a 2 race game in the future, it's just exaggerations made by angry terrans.
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On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT:
[quote]
If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke.
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice!
Sigh.... I guess after nearly a year of zerg complaining about protoss, it's time for the race with the least number of GSL wins, the least representation in GSL finals, the fewest number of Premier tournament wins (both in 2012 - 2/7 wins and 1/7 runner-ups, and including 2011 - 9/40 wins) to take more flak from a new race for how obviously OP they are. This time with more flaming of their GSL contenders! Alicia plays like a diamond leaguer - great argument!
Edit: source - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
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On March 14 2012 23:10 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. the reason i started with protoss in the first place , but I like the race the most anyway I used to play random but finally settled on protoss as I enjoyed it the most, I like going into a game where I feel comfortable in the lategame potential of that race and feeling confident going for a lategame macro victory. Any protoss players who claim their race isn't the simplest to pick up and play are in denial. This does not make it imbalanced and it doesn't mean you can't be a good protoss player....at the same time for someone who likes playing terran what does it matter that you're lower on a ladder than someone who plays slower than you, or maybe is worse at multitasking, is it really that important to you? sc2 players seem to care about ladder so much compared to bw. as you say the differential existed in brood war as well yet I never experienced half the balance whining. I cannot remember a bw player ending a game qqing about protoss (although that may just be a side-effect of them seeming to be on average better mannered anyway)
You are right on some points but you are wrong when looking at balance in Brood War, imo anyway.
Brood War was not balanced at the lower D/D+ levels. What happened was as the player becomes better at using his units and macro the game would balance off at the mid level, then reaching an almost perfect balance at top levels. Think marine micro vs lurker, mutalisk micro, 20 gate Protoss macro in PvT etc etc.
What is happening in SC2, the way I see it, is that there is imbalance throughtout the low/mid/high stages.
What I believe is the main reason for this is Blizzard chucking out a nerf/buff way too quickly. They instanerfed the Thor, nerfed the Ghost to the extreme, and the result is a Thor that can get up to 200dmg with a click of a button and ghosts that need so much precision when casting that one slight mistake could just spell gg. TvP is too volatile anyway, so this just makes things even worse for the matchup.
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On March 14 2012 23:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:03 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:00 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 22:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance."
Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle. And as you post that, theStC comes from behind (significant worker disadvantage) and rapes Alicia in a 200 vs. 200 engagement, where it's not even close. They both had death balls of MMMVG and zealot/ sentry/ stalker/ archon/ HT/ colossi. And theStC wrecked Alicia. And yes, they both microed. And yes, the Terran roflstomped the Protoss. It's not unheard of. It had to do with positioning. They can both win against each other. This time, the Terran won. Yea, I just saw that. It took Alicia attacking in a tiny ramp with chargelot archon and having his zealots behind his stalkers for every fight for the STC to win. So yea, if the Protoss plays like a diamond leaguer the Terran can win! Nice! Wohooo here comes the defensive crybaby attitude. "It's always the races fault if i lose, but if the OP race loses he made 1000 mistakes that make him a scrub" Keep on trucking, dude! You haven't made a single constructive post defending protoss. All you can say if that we're "crybabies" as if that invalidates anything we've said. Take your own advice and check out of this thread because you haven't contributed anything.
Because you are a crybaby, because your arguments are faulty and there is no reason to bring counterarguments, it is enough to point out how ridiculous your arguments are, which he did.
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I was trying to kind of 'save' this thread from such a discussion, but it went all down again, because there's so much whine.
On March 14 2012 15:06 CeroFail wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:03 Type|NarutO wrote:
Have you tried to use mass ghosts? If you once hit 30+ ghosts and now please don't call me out on "thats impossible to get" it will get very tricky for Protoss to win. Every engagement you take you can entirely devastate the Protoss and a warpin of gateway units, especially zealots won't help him. Zealots MELT(!) to 3-3 ghosts like there is no tomorrow. 30 ghosts will clean up a 20 zealot warpin within a few seconds if you are cloaked which you should always be able to. Not to mention you should have support left over.
Robo units? Stalkers? 30 Ghosts cost 6000, 3000?
Robo units aka the colossus, because immortals are utterly usesless against mass ghost and supporting bio since its no area of effect damage, will die to vikings. Ghost and the supporting bio deals with the rest. Upgrades are better on marauders than on stalkers, because marauders get +2 while stalkers don't...
Please try it out before you whine..
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492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it...
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On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
Yep, back when I was playing protoss there was ton of guides written by the top protoss guys on this forum. There 0 real standard TvX guides on the forum so it's harder to learn the race imo.
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I can't believe this thread is surviving this long. The obvious reason why you see less terran because although terran is a time based mid game race, their matchups take longer to finish overall. TvT and TvZ last quite a while and TvP has fast dynamic but still take time in till midgame till either player can kill eachother. Most terrans at Plat+ don't tend to all in/cheese so thats why we are seeing less terran in ladder at these skill levels.
Statistically of course terran is smaller represented because it takes a lot of hard work to be good at terran cuz all three matchups are totally different and there is a lot of hate since beta.
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On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it...
When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts.
By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us.
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