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On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect?
If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army.
If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50.
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Yea so you decide to take third and then he rolls you with some collosus, the problem is you have to be very carefull when and how take advantage against protoss as terran without suiciding
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On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50.
that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread.
It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys?
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I don't know, but out of the Terrans on my friends list, they seem to be playing the custom games. Something about the ladder has them not wanting to play. I'm the only Terran player I know who still ladders.
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On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys?
so logic is not wanted?
threads that disregard logic tend to have a certain attribute, that attribute is closed.
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Also, protoss harass is much easier to do and more forgiving...
late game dts are really hard to deal with when the patrol around free expos.
zealot warpins are too hard to defend imo, because you need a much bigger army to deal with them than their cost.
moreover, drops are completely negated in the late game by defensive dts, templars and zealot warpins, because the drop will give you nothing when you have to micro it all day vs the zealots because they just dont die.
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On March 14 2012 21:33 habeck wrote:
Yea so you decide to take third and then he rolls you with some collosus, the problem is you have to be very carefull when and how take advantage against protoss as terran without suiciding
Yea so you decide to take third and then he rolls you with MMMVG, the problem is you have to be very carefull when and how take advantage against terran as protoss without suiciding. (Or he just sieges you, abuses your lack of mobility, and oh my lord was it hard to ignore your grammar.)
Quite frankly, your argument is just as easily true in PvT. You apparently think it's a cakewalk to break a Terran who's turtling hard.
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On March 14 2012 21:13 Thr33 wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I do not mean to imply any opinion regarding the balance of the races, but you must understand that what people are trying to say are that a player of equal skill are not at the same ranking due to the matchup being more difficult for one side at their level. Either it's because it requires a more unintuitive set of mechanics or the sheer volume of mechanic abilities required is different doesn't matter. Being beaten by someone you are convinced is worse then you causes the same rage as when someone does a stupid cheese and you fall for it. In the end it is your fault, but it is frustrating and to some people it can ruin your motivation. The only way to change this would be to change something that wouldn't affect the highest levels of play. This is basically impossible, but for the match making system to work at these levels it would need to be balanced. However I agree with you, with there being no other way there is nothing else to do but to reach the skill where the matchups are balanced out. I mean, you really should not be that bothered by anyones play but your own untill you reach High Masters. Again I do not mean to imply that this imbalance exists at any levels, I am just further clarifying the opinions of many of the posters in this thread. I believe Strelok posted a thread about how foreigner terrans where at a level where they were not able to compete, this relates to the same topic of race balance untill you reach peak. I say continue playing, improve, wait and see. And what happens will happen. If you're here discussing it you could be practicing. Speaking of which..
You are not beaten by someone worse. He showed his better understanding of the game by picking better race better allowing him to win. Choosing a race is part of the strategy in SC2. As for TvP, I just 1-1-1 and routinely beat players two leagues up. They are better in the sense that you subscribe to, so no, it is not only protoss that can frustrate terran by doing easy path to victory.
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On March 14 2012 21:38 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? so logic is not wanted? threads that disregard logic tend to have a certain attribute, that attribute is closed.
One person does not speak for the majority.
Don't assume such is the case.
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On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys?
It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran.
On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play.
I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment. Okay, maybe top GM too, I don't know about this level but I think you stabilize your position in GM easier if you play odd timings and strategies.
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On March 14 2012 21:38 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? so logic is not wanted? threads that disregard logic tend to have a certain attribute, that attribute is closed.
On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran.
You know it's a shit thread when i actually go out of my way to write something utterly stupid yet it seems people can't tell it apart from the normal level of crying in this thread. :D
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On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran. Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment.
Let's mis-read one comment and then for the other comment, fallaciously move the goalposts back so any micro-intensive Protoss strategy becomes "not good for ladder, only for tournaments." Got it.
While the late game may not be favoring Terran right now, the overgeneralizations in this thread of "As a Terran, I have to micro every unit perfectly and Protoss just has to press 1A and they automatically win at everything" is unbelievable.
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On March 14 2012 21:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran. On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment. Let's mis-read one comment and then for the other comment, fallaciously move the goalposts back so any micro-intensive Protoss strategy becomes "not good for ladder, only for tournaments." Got it. While the late game may not be favoring Terran right now, the overgeneralizations in this thread of "As a Terran, I have to micro every unit perfectly and Protoss just has to press 1A and they automatically win at everything" is unbelievable.
Sigh I'm outta here. You are just plain stupid, I won't argue with that.
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On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play.
Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle.
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On March 14 2012 21:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran. On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment. Let's mis-read one comment and then for the other comment, fallaciously move the goalposts back so any micro-intensive Protoss strategy becomes "not good for ladder, only for tournaments." Got it. While the late game may not be favoring Terran right now, the overgeneralizations in this thread of "As a Terran, I have to micro every unit perfectly and Protoss just has to press 1A and they automatically win at everything" is unbelievable.
Standard internet argumentation. Can't actually refute any points made, attack argument instead. Win!
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How quickly this has transformed into a [H]TvP or vs Protoss QQ thread. It's really not THAT bad...
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Terran Can’t Beat Protoss
We don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the matchup because win/loss ratios are swinging both ways. This is especially true at league levels below Masters. That said, we have noticed that terran at lower skill levels are underperforming a bit, especially vs. zerg and somewhat vs. protoss. We suspect that the initial complexity of the terran race may be a contributing factor to this, so internally, we’re experimenting with moving some of the new terran units around to make terran slightly more intuitive to play -- at lower levels only.
this is was david kim said, i think the battlehellion alone will very well be able to equalize lowlevel tvp as it should not be all too difficult to control, lets see if they change anything before hots though.
source:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4338836/Questions_from_the_Community-1_25_2012?page=5
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On March 14 2012 22:34 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. Well can the pros comment on balance at the top level? Because a lot of top Terrans have already voiced how ridiculous the TvP matchup is. Korean pros. Everyone stop with this mindset crap. It's not like there is some skill thresh hold you need to hit to stop experiencing the exact same problems. Watch the GSL, Terrans have complete stopped going past 1-2 bases vs toss. Because they know it's a losing battle, a near impossible battle.
And alot of top Zerg voiced how ridiculous the ZvX matchup is. And alot of top Protoss voiced how ridiculous the PvX matchup is. Watch the GSL, top protoss are still losing to simple 1-1-1 timing pushes. So terrans don't go past 1-2 bases yet i remember Puma being the one up a base on MC in nearly every game at the very close IEM final.
See, i can do this too, not that i care because i'm not biased. Many of you are just way to invested in this and it makes it impossible to have an constructive argument.
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On March 14 2012 22:25 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 14 2012 21:44 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 21:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:28 Restyle1337 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? If a toss just turtles of two bases you should be able to get complete map control, expand freely, have a way better income, have the perfect army composition, and a ton of production buildings to re-produce lost army. If he turtles on three, I can guarantee that there is holes, one way or the other. Multipronged attacks, drops, etc. Having 70 or 200 apm doesn't mean shit if you don't spend it wisely. Sjow is cruising around with less then 100 apm at the very top level. I'm I'm sure any top-level player would kick your ass with less then 50. that kind of attitude is not wanted in this thread. It's about P having 50ish APM just retardedly making their deathball by stupidly pushing their macro key while terran is cruising at 200+ APM doing insane stuff but, in the end, protoss just rolls terran because the lategame is impossible. Am i rite, guys? It isn't the Protoss player's fault - it's the broken design of the entire race. When I play Protoss, I'm actually quite pissed that I don't have viable options to use my multitasking/APM like I have with Terran. On March 14 2012 21:18 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play. I think this strats are pretty good in BO3/5 tournaments but not in a ladder environment. Let's mis-read one comment and then for the other comment, fallaciously move the goalposts back so any micro-intensive Protoss strategy becomes "not good for ladder, only for tournaments." Got it. While the late game may not be favoring Terran right now, the overgeneralizations in this thread of "As a Terran, I have to micro every unit perfectly and Protoss just has to press 1A and they automatically win at everything" is unbelievable. Sigh I'm outta here. You are just plain stupid, I won't argue with that.
Very mature and constructive comment, much like how your response to Blazinghand's examples of innovative play was to dismiss it and say it couldn't be useful in PvT ladder- only in PvT tournament games (lol? what does that even mean?). Glad that so many people so easily dismiss counterexamples here with "No, that's not true; Terran really is impossible to win with in the late game, and Protoss really is an a-move race that gives you free wins!"
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