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On March 14 2012 13:03 Type|NarutO wrote:
Have you tried to use mass ghosts? If you once hit 30+ ghosts and now please don't call me out on "thats impossible to get" it will get very tricky for Protoss to win. Every engagement you take you can entirely devastate the Protoss and a warpin of gateway units, especially zealots won't help him. Zealots MELT(!) to 3-3 ghosts like there is no tomorrow. 30 ghosts will clean up a 20 zealot warpin within a few seconds if you are cloaked which you should always be able to. Not to mention you should have support left over.
Robo units? Stalkers? 30 Ghosts cost 6000, 3000?
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On March 14 2012 07:23 karpo wrote:
1.4.2 terrans worldwide average 28.3% diamond and up, and they average 30.1% platinum and under.
1.2.0 terrans worldwide averaged 30.3% diamond and up (no GM), and they averaged 34.5% platinum and under (most of which is bronze).
1.1.0 terrans worldwide averaged 31.1% in diamond+platinum (no GM/M, also inflated due to zergs being sub 25%), and they averaged 36.4% in gold and under.
Is that so horrible? As there's 2-8 percent random players for each league i'm guessing the average if the divide was perfect would be 31/31/31 or so. So there's no enormous drop in terrans compared to 1.2.0 released more than a year ago, and terran overall isn't more than a couple of percent below what you expect from a fair divide.
I posted this a few pages back but got no responses. The OP makes a point about terrans being absent from ladder and quotes statistics from sc2ranks yet the statistics from 13-14 months ago show close to the same percentages as now.
Zerg in 1.1.0 had a representation average of about 20% so them gaining popularity surely lowered the protoss/terran percentages as time passed.
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On March 14 2012 13:10 drakhl wrote:Show nested quote +
Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have.
Fact of the matter is, if the terran doesnt outright dominate a battle (terran needs to have the best units in the game since it has the worst producion) they cant press an advantage. If a battle goes even, terran is actually way behind and is pretty much fucked.
You can remove warpgate if you give up stim. Are you nuts? Lets just make Protoss unplayable because Terran only has a 46% win rate this month after dominating the matchup since game launch. And Terran shouldn't be 'even' after an equal food TvP battle. If they are then you did something wrong. Bio is extremely cost efficient and the name of the game is to retain as much as possible by engaging in the most favorable situations, hitting those money EMPs and getting good concaves. If you're just throwing your bio into the toss army of course hes going to warp in 50 chargelots and kill whatever is leftover, same way that zerg can remax (only closer to the battle front). Back off to your base, throw a medivac drop at one of his exposed bases, then remax and repeat.
So a Terran HAS to get a perfect engagement, or lose and the protoss can just sit back and don't do stupid stuff which makes him instantly loose. Seems fair.
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Do everything you can to contain the toss on 2 bases. Once he gets 3 bases he'll be throwing down a templar archives and storm isn't far behind, as well as 12+ gateways. You need to do enough damage to at least go into the late game with a significant economic advantage.
So basically you're saying you have to significantly outplay your opponent to be even, but on the other hand the other side only has to play standard and get 3 bases to have an advantage.
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Lol, two "so you mean terran has to play perfectly... blah blah" in a row. This is really repetitive.
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On March 14 2012 13:09 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:05 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
[quote]
Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T.
And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh  I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient. Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have. . My point is you're wrong, and this "things won't change" "terran HAVE to do this" "we CANT do anything else" in-adaptability is pointless and self-defeating.
" Ghost are too powerfull in the lategame, we CAN'T do anything after this point. Zerg HAVE to win before Ghost are out. Things won't change. "
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Russian Federation823 Posts
Well i think this thread got out of control, as suddenly nobody ever wins vs Protoss (remember the TvP matchup is pretty much unaffected by the recent patch).
As i stated before, i think the game balance is fine right now, although i think charge shouldn't be autocast since blink also isn't. This would add more potential for unit control to protoss and require more micro after warping in many many zealots immediately after an engagement.
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IMO, TvP is really hard for Terrans. I don't even care that it's hard. It just always feels like Protoss isn't doing anything other than spamming Z after a big battle. I see that Protoss players have just as high of an APM as me during fights but I'm not completely sure where it's spent so this could entirely be cause I don't know the race that well. I would like though if charge was somehow made into something that required micro to be used effectively. That's literally the only thing I would want at this point.
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On March 14 2012 18:59 Chaggi wrote:
IMO, TvP is really hard for Terrans. I don't even care that it's hard. It just always feels like Protoss isn't doing anything other than spamming Z after a big battle. I see that Protoss players have just as high of an APM as me during fights but I'm not completely sure where it's spent so this could entirely be cause I don't know the race that well. I would like though if charge was somehow made into something that required micro to be used effectively. That's literally the only thing I would want at this point.
They like to spam a click :p
Currently watching MVP struggle against Protoss on the IM stream.. :/
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I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine.
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On March 14 2012 20:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:59 Chaggi wrote:
IMO, TvP is really hard for Terrans. I don't even care that it's hard. It just always feels like Protoss isn't doing anything other than spamming Z after a big battle. I see that Protoss players have just as high of an APM as me during fights but I'm not completely sure where it's spent so this could entirely be cause I don't know the race that well. I would like though if charge was somehow made into something that required micro to be used effectively. That's literally the only thing I would want at this point. Forcefields, Psionic Storms, Guardian Shield, blinking Stalkers, keeping Colossus in the back, reeling in overzealous Zealots etc. There are things for Protoss to do in battles, contrary to popular belief.
Funny joke you make.
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I have been really tempted to switch from Terran many times, but I will never change I don't think. The reason I stick to Terran even after nerfs is because the race rewards skill.
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EDIT:
On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine.
If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke.[/QUOTE]
Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races.
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Blazinghand
United States25561 Posts
On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races.
Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance."
Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player.
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On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player.
I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it.
That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional sometimes. I find it indicative that no pro has ever shown consistency (addition: in a 18 month old game;).
If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect?
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Blazinghand
United States25561 Posts
On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build.
As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games.
I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again.
When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost.
My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours.
EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player.
I do not mean to imply any opinion regarding the balance of the races, but you must understand that what people are trying to say are that a player of equal skill are not at the same ranking due to the matchup being more difficult for one side at their level. Either it's because it requires a more unintuitive set of mechanics or the sheer volume of mechanic abilities required is different doesn't matter. Being beaten by someone you are convinced is worse then you causes the same rage as when someone does a stupid cheese and you fall for it. In the end it is your fault, but it is frustrating and to some people it can ruin your motivation.
The only way to change this would be to change something that wouldn't affect the highest levels of play. This is basically impossible, but for the match making system to work at these levels it would need to be balanced.
However I agree with you, with there being no other way there is nothing else to do but to reach the skill where the matchups are balanced out. I mean, you really should not be that bothered by anyones play but your own untill you reach High Masters. Again I do not mean to imply that this imbalance exists at any levels, I am just further clarifying the opinions of many of the posters in this thread. I believe Strelok posted a thread about how foreigner terrans where at a level where they were not able to compete, this relates to the same topic of race balance untill you reach peak.
I say continue playing, improve, wait and see. And what happens will happen. If you're here discussing it you could be practicing. Speaking of which..
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On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve.
I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone. Maybe this mindset is an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game. I defy this mindset with all my heart since I think it just an easy way to evade problems instead of tackling them.
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
I personally think that every Protoss buff/Terran nerf so far have shown the incompetence of Blizzard. Take for example the 6 immortal range, less micro required now. Or the phoenix range upgrade. Less micro, always less micro instead of additional options to use your skill. And this for the race which even before required the least actions per minute. That's why I switched from Protoss to Terran as main race, only binary decisions and very little room for viable creativity. On the other hand Terran always gets nerfed in a way that requires more skill afterwards, e.g. ghosts nerf force now better positioning, timings and exact tech switching.
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Blazinghand
United States25561 Posts
On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:02 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:55 VoO wrote:On March 14 2012 20:44 Blazinghand wrote:On March 14 2012 20:28 VoO wrote:EDIT: On March 14 2012 20:14 VoO wrote:
I'm High Master/Grandmaster Terran and Protoss High Diamond/Master so I can tell you one thing: Protoss is a noob race - just like it is in Broodwar. You need half of the multitasking/macro/micro to get into Master/D-. Basically you stare at your 2 points of your screen for 20 minutes until your deathball is ready. Of course there are nice micro strategies but, to be honest, you must be pretty stupid to rely on them since you can get much higher in the ladder with turtle/all-in. And honestly, I don't give a shit. I started in Beta with Protoss and played Protoss in Broodwar. It was always the noob race and will be and nobody should give a flying fuck. I don't know why people rage about this fact, just play and you'll be fine. If Protoss is a noob race, why are you higher with Terran than you are with Protoss? Kekekeke. Because my main race is currently Terran which I play 30g/d and Protoss/Zerg only 5-10g/d. I think nobody should comment on this who isn't at least High Diamond with both races. Realistically, nobody should comment on balance who isn't at the very pinnacle of skill for their race. I'm a mid master Terran and the only comment I feel qualified to make on balance is that "at my level, the thing holding be back from winning is always my own skill, never balance." Anyone who's not at the very top should be saying the same thing. Any time you lose, don't blame it on something external like "luck" or "imbalance"-- this will make you a worse player. Adversity should cause you to turn inwards, look inside yourself, and produce hope. Realize that all there is to the game is skill, and you can, and must, become a better player. I only comment on the ladder situation. GM/Pro/GSL is not the topic here and I can't comment on it. That every loss is based on your incompetence is not true, in SC2 you can lose to so many stupid all-ins/luck and even a Diamond player can own a GM or professional. If you analyze every replay and see that the Protoss has 70 APM while you have 200 and he turtles until deathball, of course people start to rage what do you expect? Btw, the most hilarous fact is, that micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore. If you lose to an all-in that you failed to scout, then you should have scouted aggressively. If your build doesn't contain the scouting and/or the safety to hold certain all-ins, then it is not "luck" that you lose to an all-in; rather, it is a risk you accepted when you chose your build. As a classic example, if a Protoss player goes for a 1 gate fast expand and loses to a proxy Thor rush, he did not lose to "luck". Rather, he lost because he chose a build that loses to an unscouted proxy Thor, and he failed to scout it. When I lose to a surprising reaper/hellion 1 base elevator attack, I didn't lose due to "luck"-- I lost because I didn't know the build existed. I lost because I was not skilled and knowledgeable enough. After losing to that, I took steps to scout and fight this sort of build in subsequent games. I attribute what little skill I have in sc2 to my attitude and willingness to learn. If a protoss with 70 APM turtles to a deathball, and somehow I fail to scan and see its composition and make the perfect counter-composition with ghosts and vikings, it is my fault. Terran has by far the best scouting, and the perfect tools to fight the protoss death ball. If a guy turtles to 200, and he beats me, I commend him for it, and will review the replay and not lose to the same thing again. When I analyze my replays, I never lost due to luck-- I always lose due to being outplayed. Barring once or twice when I had equipment failures or lag issues, I have never outplayed an opponent and lost. My attitude towards this game has caused me to improve immeasurably. I hope you can say the same for yours. EDIT: in fact, I lost today to a very clever protoss who fast expanded to the gold on metalopolis, aggressively poking my front with zealots and making me think he was all in. I scouted once for secret expos but did not touch the watch tower until my second circulation, when it was far too late. I didn't lose due to being "unlucky", I lost because I was not good enough. Next time a protoss FEs to the gold and pressures my front I will not make the same mistake. This is how I view my losses, and how you should view yours if you want to improve. I don't know about the right mindset, I can't say that the "ultra-happy-everything-is-your-own-mistake-which-can-lead-to-improvement-Day9" is the choice for everyone or an accepted way of denying the imbalances and inconsistencies of the game.
I can't definitively say this game is balanced at the top level because I don't know-- I haven't been there. As long as I can keep on getting better, I will attempt to do so, because for me, it's fun. I like having fun :D
On March 14 2012 21:13 VoO wrote:
I've occured one Protoss today, high master, who tried to do a cute colossus drop. I pitied him, because he tried to be creative which lead to his loss. The situation with protoss is that you get punished if you try to be creative. Micro/skill-intensive strategies like storm/sentry/colossus drops are not as viable as stupid all-in/turtling anymore.
My bro Puck is a top GM who does a cute colossus drop in PvT as his normal play. It's brutal. It's non standard. And it works great for him because he has the mechanics to pull it off. I regularly see interesting and innovative play from all the races from players like HerO and sC and it inspires me to do better. I do not know where you think this "turtling" strategy that is so overwhelming comes from, either-- I see Protosses regularly be aggressive, do weird drop play, take quick thirds go for double upgrades with delayed splash tech... There's a lot of ways to play.
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