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On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh  I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing.
Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides.
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On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides.
read edit on previous page.
And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient.
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On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. It is exactly parallel to bw. How long were you even around? Terran blew ass outside of korea for quite a while until Idra practicing in korea for a year or 2 paid off. There's a reason the main MU non koreans could beat koreans in was PvT. Also, its not having to be better than your opponent to win.......its that your opponent doesnt have to be better than you. Or even equal to you in skill as protoss to win. When I beat a protoss i know it is never because of something good I did, more because they just played bad and made stupid mistakes. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly.
The main match up in Broodwar where non-Koreans could take on Korean Terrans was PvT? Sorry but I have to disagree, as far as I can remember in the early stages it was Blackman who could take on Koreans even though, cannot really call that 'taking on Koreans'. Nazgul, Draco, White-rA, G5 are some of the Protoss I still remember on the fly that could show very good games against Terran, even against Koreans but what strikes me immediately is
MidiaN, SunCow, ret (TvZ , ZvT), Mondragon (even though he did "blow" in ZvT, he still could take games of semi-pro / pro Terrans sometimes), DIMAGA .. they all could take games, so I guess the main opponent for the Koreans were Zerg.
Also I don't really think foreign Terrans sucked, as we had very good russian Terrans (Androide, BRAT_OK) and other good Terrans (Strelok, Yosh, IdrA). Forgive me its very early (5AM) so I don't remember everything on the fly right now, but I don't think you can say all other Terrans did suck.
Obviously if you compare foreign 'any race' to the Korean Stars we will suck insanely, but that was because Korea was just two worlds above everyone else in Broodwar. Even though I would agree with you that on semi-pro level the biggest gap in skill was the comparison between Korean semi-pro Terrans and non-korean Terrans, with some exceptions.
On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides.
Have you tried to use mass ghosts? If you once hit 30+ ghosts and now please don't call me out on "thats impossible to get" it will get very tricky for Protoss to win. Every engagement you take you can entirely devastate the Protoss and a warpin of gateway units, especially zealots won't help him. Zealots MELT(!) to 3-3 ghosts like there is no tomorrow. 30 ghosts will clean up a 20 zealot warpin within a few seconds if you are cloaked which you should always be able to. Not to mention you should have support left over.
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On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient.
highly unlikely that terran standard game will shift away from MMMVG considering there aren't any other units that are decent against protoss. mech is good for specific timing pushes, but not as an all around composition -- not when protoss can produce the counter units faster, and with more mobility.
even if somehow mech was figured out and was on par with MMMVG (which it isn't), it would still be an inferior strategy -- why would you ever choose a harder strategy to execute when it isn't any better.
i'm a protoss player, honestly the biggest change to the matchup will come in the form of HOTS (or if they patch the game at all before taht).
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Over time the huge terran winrates got nerfed down closer to balance. A lot of terrans were angry about seemingly being targeted every patch, so I think that resentment contributed a lot to the lower numbers. A lot of them just didn't want to adapt and try new strategies, they wanted the same old terran facerolling of every race. Another problem was Protoss took a lot longer than Terran to be figured out, so around the same time the nerfs started hitting we started seeing the 'standard' PvT that we have now.
Protoss was always the most popular race, even during launch. Zerg was extremely low in population, so I'd guess a good chunk of terrans have switched over once zerg got more figured out (and buffed a bit).
As for TvP, foreign terrans are extremely passive. A good terran is always attacking, always pressuring. Sitting back and letting the toss slowly build to 4 bases and 8000 gateways will just lose you the game. Most terrans you play will medivac drop once or twice, maybe poke around at your third a bit, but thats about all.
Do everything you can to contain the toss on 2 bases. Once he gets 3 bases he'll be throwing down a templar archives and storm isn't far behind, as well as 12+ gateways. You need to do enough damage to at least go into the late game with a significant economic advantage.
People will complain oh well i shouldn't have to do this, it should be an even chance to win in the late game blizzard has poor game design etc.. Well thats your perogative to think that, but you need to deal with the reality of things or you will just keep losing. Its the same in PvZ - I need to put pressure on the zerg to make sure he doesn't instawin by droning up, and I need to either all in or secure a third (which is super hard). That is just the way the game is right now, but we don't complain about it.
But honestly I think 1-1-1 styles are the future in TvP. I'd highly recommend learning yourself some of those. Just don't do it to me on the ladder
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On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient.
Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have.
Fact of the matter is, if the terran doesnt outright dominate a battle (terran needs to have the best units in the game since it has the worst producion) they cant press an advantage. If a battle goes even, terran is actually way behind and is pretty much fucked.
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On March 14 2012 13:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient. Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have. Fact of the matter is, if the terran doesnt outright dominate a battle (terran needs to have the best units in the game since it has the worst producion) they cant press an advantage. If a battle goes even, terran is actually way behind and is pretty much fucked.
Ghosts, lots of ghosts.
Vikings
Medivacs
Little economy, lots of orbitals
supporting Marine/Marauder
This is a perfect lategame combination against everything Protoss can field and you can absolutely dominate a lategame battle with it. The way to get it is not easy I will admit, but its possible.
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On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument?
they should at least look to the units terran has and make changes to certain units to make them actually useful. for example, ravens are utterly useless in the game unless we're talking about specific timing pushes, and seeker missile in general is pretty terrible. why not making that less terrible? or at the very least USEFUL.
reapers? they should aim to make each unit useful in the general sense.
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On March 14 2012 13:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:On March 14 2012 12:17 SpeakNow wrote:
I think it is the mentality of the foreign terran scene and the foreign scene in general. The korean Terran scene seems to be doing just fine.
Foreign scene is all bases on macro macro and if you win with anything less than 3 bases well you a cheesing piece of shit. Where in Korea is win at all cost and you dont get crucified.
Terran as a race as everyone knows by now is that they have to be aggressive in order to get ahead. If Terran want to sit around and turtle for 20mins and force a 200-200 fight more than likely they are going to lose.
Foreign Terrans in general are very passive and that streams down to lower league terrans too. After a while people get tired of losing obviously everyone wants to win. So they just switch races. Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T. And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient. Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have. .
My point is you're wrong, and this "things won't change" "terran HAVE to do this" "we CANT do anything else" in-adaptability is pointless and self-defeating.
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Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have.
Fact of the matter is, if the terran doesnt outright dominate a battle (terran needs to have the best units in the game since it has the worst producion) they cant press an advantage. If a battle goes even, terran is actually way behind and is pretty much fucked.
You can remove warpgate if you give up stim. Are you nuts? Lets just make Protoss unplayable because Terran only has a 46% win rate this month after dominating the matchup since game launch.
And Terran shouldn't be 'even' after an equal food TvP battle. If they are then you did something wrong. Bio is extremely cost efficient and the name of the game is to retain as much as possible by engaging in the most favorable situations, hitting those money EMPs and getting good concaves. If you're just throwing your bio into the toss army of course hes going to warp in 50 chargelots and kill whatever is leftover, same way that zerg can remax (only closer to the battle front). Back off to your base, throw a medivac drop at one of his exposed bases, then remax and repeat.
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On March 14 2012 13:09 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:05 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
[quote]
Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T.
And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient. Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have. . My point is you're wrong, and this "things won't change" "terran HAVE to do this" "we CANT do anything else" in-adaptability is pointless and self-defeating.
na, things will get patched once it gets bad enough and enough people voice their concerns. Theres nothing self defeating about it. It has already been shown to work several times over.
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On March 14 2012 13:10 drakhl wrote:Show nested quote +
Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have.
Fact of the matter is, if the terran doesnt outright dominate a battle (terran needs to have the best units in the game since it has the worst producion) they cant press an advantage. If a battle goes even, terran is actually way behind and is pretty much fucked.
You can remove warpgate if you give up stim. Are you nuts? Lets just make Protoss unplayable because Terran only has a 46% win rate this month after dominating the matchup since game launch. And Terran shouldn't be 'even' after an equal food TvP battle. If they are then you did something wrong. Bio is extremely cost efficient and the name of the game is to retain as much as possible by engaging in the most favorable situations, hitting those money EMPs and getting good concaves. If you're just throwing your bio into the toss army of course hes going to warp in 50 chargelots and kill whatever is leftover, same way that zerg can remax (only closer to the battle front). Back off to your base, throw a medivac drop at one of his exposed bases, then remax and repeat.
From your "assessment" its pretty easy to tell you've never played TVP, people just throwing their opinion after theorycrafting does not help in any away. However this thread is far too much QQ about certain balance issues then a discussion over why Terran is so sparsely represented. The answer is game design, the fact that Terran is much harder to play than certainly protoss, and even zerg. I think anyone whos played all 3 races at a higher level won't deny that.
The problem is this shouldn't be happening, an ideal solution would be to either tweak terran and not reward players with good multitasking and micro, or make the game more like brood war and require a lot more micro/multitask out of protoss and zerg (relative to terran, not in general Sc2 as a game requires micro and multitask no matter what)
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So, every protoss knew for months that the emp was going to be patched. I'm just curious, is there something Terran players universally know will be patched? I'm not talking about your personal preference, but some kind of a consensus.
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On March 14 2012 13:26 -_- wrote:
So, every protoss knew for months that the emp was going to be patched. I'm just curious, is there something Terran players universally know will be patched? I'm not talking about your personal preference, but some kind of a consensus.
Uh. Ravens will get the fuck nerfed out of them if terrans ever really start using them. But it's borderline unlikely because they require so many fucking upgrades and are so squishy, unless Blizzard gives them a speed/acceleration upgrade (which they genuinely need), and removes one of the four upgrades you can get for them.
But for the most part unless people start doing something new that turns out to be overpowered, I think everything we'd have expected to be nerfed already was.
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I don't really get why people care if Terran is a less popular. I guess it's cool statistically or something?
More importantly, I'm surprised by TvP 63% thing. I've found that the match-up is one of the easier one's to understand, and much more forgiving for missteps that TvT or TvZ.
I mean, unit kiting and splitting is annoying, but I can't count the number of games I've lost in TvT to the really tiny and annoying things, like moving a tank kind-of forward in the right spot or forgetting to manage your units so that they don't just try to run themselves into tanks. And then their is breaking siege tanks, harassing against turret entrenched enemies and all that jazz. I think that is much more difficult than TvP.
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I'm a low-mid masters Protoss that just played about 150 games as Terran. A big difference I notice is that everything I do as Terran seems to benefit more from good mechanics. There are simply more key strokes required to macro as Terran. And almost every unit can gain significant effectiveness through careful control.
But equally important is that Terran seems to benefit far less from adapting its play. As Protoss I can scout a Terran unit composition that is marauder heavy and immediately skew my production to be more zealot heavy. The Terran could never do a similar tweak, because the Terran has already committed to a bunch of tech labs.
So I don't know, you could maybe prioritize your time to where your race is most likely to get an edge to win the game. It shouldn't be surprising that the two races are fundamentally different. Bitches need to stop bitching and learn to play
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On March 14 2012 13:59 BlehBleh wrote:
I'm a low-mid masters Protoss that just played about 150 games as Terran. A big difference I notice is that everything I do as Terran seems to benefit more from good mechanics. There are simply more key strokes required to macro as Terran. And almost every unit can gain significant effectiveness through careful control.
But equally important is that Terran seems to benefit far less from adapting its play. As Protoss I can scout a Terran unit composition that is marauder heavy and immediately skew my production to be more zealot heavy. The Terran could never do a similar tweak, because the Terran has already committed to a bunch of tech labs.
So I don't know, you could maybe prioritize your time to where your race is most likely to get an edge to win the game. It shouldn't be surprising that the two races are fundamentally different. Bitches need to stop bitching and learn to play
I agree with you to some extent. Its the fundamental diference of a smi-pro terran compared to a MMA or MVP. The nuances, like the number of vikings, the marine/maraude ratio and ghost timing. I still think the key to late game Tvp is Bc's, to force some stalkers like colossus force vikings. There has to be a way to avoid that huge zealot archon blob, and still be in line with the regular bio/viking/ghost style.
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My statistics from SC2 gears:
229 games analyzed High Plat to High Diamond
Win%
TvT 64%
TvZ 62%
TvP 47%
Nothin sus.
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On March 14 2012 13:09 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:05 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:59 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:58 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:55 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:36 Sadist wrote:On March 14 2012 12:33 Angel_ wrote:On March 14 2012 12:32 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
[quote]
Dude that's the game design flaw everyone's bitching about. T vs. P has become a race against the clock for most terrans. T attacks his ass off to win before the 15 min mark and P turtles his heart out in order to get a 200/200 army and roll T.
And it's not only a mentality thing. Some people just don't have the apm to fight protoss effectively, namely foreign terrans and lower league casual gamers. That's what this whole thread is about. And the game should be designed to cater to lower league casual gamers and foreigners with less mechanical skill? Is that your argument? na its just turned into BW where terran is incredibly unforgiving vs protoss and aside from the absolute highest levels (and occasionally AT the highest levels) its kinda meh I don't agree. A lot of terran arguments seem to be taking ONLY the terrans skill level into account. At low levels proper timing attacks absolutely trainwreck toss on the ladder alot of the time, or at the very least, cripple them. Hell, flat 1-1-1ing still wrecks a lot of toss on the ladder, even if you're doing it completely blind. I won't disagree that the end engagement if you're both maxed is unforgiving in the sense that if you're doing a MMMVG composition and you either depend on micro and fuck it up, or you depend on positioning and micro and fuck it up you'll probably die. But then again I would make the same argument for any 200/200 end-game composition fighting the other. And it's not like the terran army "can't" stand up to the 200/200 toss army either, it's just that it's hard. I don't have a problem with my game being hard and it actually requiring me to be better than my opponent to win. That's generally a requirement for winning in any actual competitive situation. I also genuinely don't like how people throw around "it's turned into broodwar" like that's even accurate in the first place or necessarily a bad thing. Just like on the other end of course there are people that immediately hop on what I just said to say, "lol Broodwar Nostalgia!!! This isn't broodwar" Frankly the two aren't even comparable currently, and the design philosophy and community (because gamers today frankly are raised to be catered to) are totally different. Saying the engagements are unforgiving for both is total BS. Terran HAS to attack, that is an inherent disadvantage. Combine that with warpgate and 1 or 2 storms getting off and the game can be over instantly. I don't even understand why you think terran "HAS" to attack. they don't. Come with warp prism and storm? Is that like combine with medivac drops with stimmed mauraders and emp and proper viking colossi engagements and proper sniping? All I'm really hearing is, boohoo I'm terran and i have to do more than the protoss right now in the matchup based on the composition I'm using and it's not fair, and as a terran it's just embarrassing. Get over yourself. "based on the composition im using" are you kidding me? I meched for quite some time and had moderate success with it. The fact is it became a waste of time to try to mech when people began to undertsand how to play against it. Do tell....what composition should I be using great one? No composition I use will mitigate the huge advantage warpgate provides. read edit on previous page. And I'm not saying "Go mech", I'm saying MMMVG isnt the ONLY terran thing in the world. The game will change. Be patient. Unless warpgate is removed or modified, the game isnt going to change. We all know that isn't going to happen so I dont see what type of argument you have. . My point is you're wrong, and this "things won't change" "terran HAVE to do this" "we CANT do anything else" in-adaptability is pointless and self-defeating.
hahahaha, it worked for zerg players 
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On March 14 2012 14:07 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 13:59 BlehBleh wrote:
I'm a low-mid masters Protoss that just played about 150 games as Terran. A big difference I notice is that everything I do as Terran seems to benefit more from good mechanics. There are simply more key strokes required to macro as Terran. And almost every unit can gain significant effectiveness through careful control.
But equally important is that Terran seems to benefit far less from adapting its play. As Protoss I can scout a Terran unit composition that is marauder heavy and immediately skew my production to be more zealot heavy. The Terran could never do a similar tweak, because the Terran has already committed to a bunch of tech labs.
So I don't know, you could maybe prioritize your time to where your race is most likely to get an edge to win the game. It shouldn't be surprising that the two races are fundamentally different. Bitches need to stop bitching and learn to play I agree with you to some extent. Its the fundamental diference of a smi-pro terran compared to a MMA or MVP. The nuances, like the number of vikings, the marine/maraude ratio and ghost timing. I still think the key to late game Tvp is Bc's, to force some stalkers like colossus force vikings. There has to be a way to avoid that huge zealot archon blob, and still be in line with the regular bio/viking/ghost style.
Hah interesting idea. With a bio + bc + scv push off of a very capable set of production buildings, he has to make stalkers, the worst units ever. Then use your massive production to throw an immediate stream of marauders ghost at him. I could imagine it working
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EPT
