This post is completely irrelevant to state of balance: People need to stop playing this like a some teamgame and look at the god damn own play instead. Just open GM league and watch that terran guy who is sitting thight in some spot. Get as good as him and better, okay that's your goal mate.
As been said koreans not winning because koreans. Attitude where you say you are bad and can't be good enough for matchup lategame is wrong attitude, tell yourself you gonna get shitgood and you will. Or do you even care?
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
I'm saying you make it easy for the Protoss. Have you watched a good Korean play TvP? They pressure, fake pressure and force the Protoss to multitask. If you don't apply pressure and he could happily tech up and chronoboost his economy, yes obviously there will be a point where you can play like a god and you will still lose. But its the same in Terran vs Zerg. If I let him drone up to 80 and hive tech, well... there's not much I can do about that match from that point.
But you've lost the match in a way earlier stage of the game then. There is so much variation in Terran vs Protoss and I'm not saying its easy to get a grasp of it. You could blindly run into a 4 gate pressure after expansion while you want to apply pressure yourself, but thats sometimes how it goes. You should always base your decisions and builds on what you see, and if you really feel unsecure you can always sacrifice a scan because information sometimes is worth more than faster minerals.
Show and park a medivac at the edge of a Protoss base - what is he going to do about it? It can be empty as well, he cannot know. He needs to be prepared and he needs forces there, usually they won't have phoenix or templars all the time or especially in the timing you should hit with your drops.
The problem with playing Terran vs Protoss for a lot of guys will be overcommiting and hastily trying to finish the game off. It just doesn't work even with a superior army, thats the defenders advantage. But you really don't need to press the issue, unlike most guys I'm not saying that a Protoss lategame army is unbeatable, because if you have way superior economy sacrifice parts of it and increase your army value. Hell, if you feel your are so far ahead econoically and his only chance is this death-style army , get two planetaries at a critical location. They won't stop him, but they will deal damage and buy time. While he moves out, 'doom-drop' him... and such a doom drop can be just 2 medivacs worth of units, because the DPS of upgraded bio is insanely high.
It really is kind of the same as playing against a mech Terran. If you try to finish him off, you will most likely throw away units and you cannot afford that. So... what I'm saying is not that you need to play like a god and he can basically camp and do nothing, but that you need to play well and with some thoughts put into it. You chose Terran, the active - agressive race. If he can shut down every agressive attempt, man.. that Protoss is a good player or you simply didn't do it good enough, so improve your play.
Your mindset seems to be the biggest problem here.
I agree with the mindset problem, and I'll admit I usually start TvP's thinking it's already over. But understand that what you're saying implies that playing Terran in fact does require more skill to compete at the same level. It's also gotten kinda old for people to continuously point to "Korean Terrans" to assuage and gripes about Terran. Yes, a select few of the best players in the world are having some degree of success with Terran. It's almost entirely irrelevant to the rest of us because we will never be close to their level.
I am saying you need to actually do something, to force Protoss into the 'I actually need to react to something' situation. Yes, if you just sit back, macro and do nothing, Protoss is probably the easier race to play. If you actually put effort into your game and have a plan, well then Protoss might be equally hard, if not harder. To be honest I don't want to judge what exactly I need to send to defend the 2 medivac drop while also defeding at the front...
Protoss especially is very unforgiving if you fall behind and you need to spread out when you can't. If you once suffered damage against Terran and he's not a complete idiot and throws away all his units, make him spread out, force him to not just sit and build stuff.
You say Terran is harder to play on an equal level, I'm calling it Terran got more options, because in my opinion a solid defensive style can be very annoying to deal with as well. You should check out Happy, he playes either very agressive or very defensive macro style with tons of ghosts, and both styles are very hard to beat.
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
So what do you suggest? Having the other races balanced so that Terran can have an easy 50% winrate at ladder and foreigner level, and give up on GSL where it would become the big Terran fiesta? This shit can only be solved by major game design changes, not buffs or nerfs, and it won't come magically like that I guess. It will require at least the expansions to know if Terran can be "fixed" or not.
I dont suggest anything, I actually don't care since this is my job and I can improve up to that level. I just stated my opinion and I understand perfectly the frustration of many other players since for me the game was exactly like that few months ago.
On March 14 2012 07:38 Ryndika wrote: This post is completely irrelevant to state of balance: People need to stop playing this like a some teamgame and look at the god damn own play instead. Just open GM league and watch that terran guy who is sitting thight in some spot. Get as good as him and better, okay that's your goal mate.
As been said koreans not winning because koreans. Attitude where you say you are bad and can't be good enough for matchup lategame is wrong attitude, tell yourself you gonna get shitgood and you will. Or do you even care?
lol. Those of us in the master/diamond leagues have been struggling in TvP since forever. It's not like we haven't been trying to find new ways to win or trying to practice. It's that I never see improvement in my TvP unless I practice gimmicky all ins. You think with the overwhelming sentiment regarding TvP from casual gamer to Korean pro people would stop scoffing at terran as ezmode. There are ton's of terran pros who could express these ideas more clearly and with more weight but they have given up trying to make their point. It always comes down to "zomg look at GSL Terran OP"
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
I'm saying you make it easy for the Protoss. Have you watched a good Korean play TvP? They pressure, fake pressure and force the Protoss to multitask. If you don't apply pressure and he could happily tech up and chronoboost his economy, yes obviously there will be a point where you can play like a god and you will still lose. But its the same in Terran vs Zerg. If I let him drone up to 80 and hive tech, well... there's not much I can do about that match from that point.
But you've lost the match in a way earlier stage of the game then. There is so much variation in Terran vs Protoss and I'm not saying its easy to get a grasp of it. You could blindly run into a 4 gate pressure after expansion while you want to apply pressure yourself, but thats sometimes how it goes. You should always base your decisions and builds on what you see, and if you really feel unsecure you can always sacrifice a scan because information sometimes is worth more than faster minerals.
Show and park a medivac at the edge of a Protoss base - what is he going to do about it? It can be empty as well, he cannot know. He needs to be prepared and he needs forces there, usually they won't have phoenix or templars all the time or especially in the timing you should hit with your drops.
The problem with playing Terran vs Protoss for a lot of guys will be overcommiting and hastily trying to finish the game off. It just doesn't work even with a superior army, thats the defenders advantage. But you really don't need to press the issue, unlike most guys I'm not saying that a Protoss lategame army is unbeatable, because if you have way superior economy sacrifice parts of it and increase your army value. Hell, if you feel your are so far ahead econoically and his only chance is this death-style army , get two planetaries at a critical location. They won't stop him, but they will deal damage and buy time. While he moves out, 'doom-drop' him... and such a doom drop can be just 2 medivacs worth of units, because the DPS of upgraded bio is insanely high.
It really is kind of the same as playing against a mech Terran. If you try to finish him off, you will most likely throw away units and you cannot afford that. So... what I'm saying is not that you need to play like a god and he can basically camp and do nothing, but that you need to play well and with some thoughts put into it. You chose Terran, the active - agressive race. If he can shut down every agressive attempt, man.. that Protoss is a good player or you simply didn't do it good enough, so improve your play.
Your mindset seems to be the biggest problem here.
I agree with the mindset problem, and I'll admit I usually start TvP's thinking it's already over. But understand that what you're saying implies that playing Terran in fact does require more skill to compete at the same level. It's also gotten kinda old for people to continuously point to "Korean Terrans" to assuage and gripes about Terran. Yes, a select few of the best players in the world are having some degree of success with Terran. It's almost entirely irrelevant to the rest of us because we will never be close to their level.
1. More skill or a different skill set 2. Harder at your current skill level not at comparable levels. As iv improved ZvT terran has gone from unbeatable to easily beatable back to hard as shit. Why base the game balance on something that can fluctuate so much as someone moves through tiers? Its the same for the other races, depending on what skill teir your in zerg can suck or be great and the same goes for protoss. Defending against constant double drops is hard as fuck from the protoss perspective but no plat player is gonna be double dropping while macroing. But when they start to its become soo hard from the toss side of things.
Edit: I do agree though tvp is hard as shit at diamond+ and i struggle for the same reasons (toss can sit back). However i force myself to constantly try to play drop heavy as that the proper solution rather than complaining. Yes my PvT is way better than my TvP for how little effort iv put in to PvT but thats irrelevant as terran has so much potential i am not using so my loses are my own problem
In TvT, you can not walk across the map and A-move to victory. Even if you have out macro'ed your opponent (siege tanks being the eternal balancer).
In TvZ you can not walk across the map and A-move to victory. Even if you have out macro'ed your opponent (banelings, infestors, surrounds, needing to siege, etc)
Why is it a problem that one can not walk across the map and A-move to victory in TvP?
To break siege lines in TvT you need to drop and be around the map in order to separate a mech army, weakest when it's split up/moving. In TvZ you need to drop to separate ensure that you can set up your attack safely and reposition their mutas. These are skills that apply in every matchup, and are required in TvP as well. Drops are exceptionally powerful, you have sensor towers/scans which provide good awareness of attack strengths, and you have bunkers for the early game (they're good, especially if you use repair. Trust me)
I do not claim to be a good terran, but since most of these complaint are geared to the the "problems in the lower leagues" I laugh that terrans find it difficult to win TvP. Nearly every low level protoss I've come across can not split their armies properly to deal with two separate drops/attacks. I know the difficulty of this playing as Protoss, and it's exceptionally easy to abuse on lower level P's.
This isn't a design/balance/representation problem, as Naruto said it's a skill problem. The reason you aren't facing other terrans is because they have all figured this out, and passed you in MMR. Keep playing and improve.
On March 14 2012 07:52 Durp wrote: I really don't understand the complaints here.
In TvT, you can not walk across the map and A-move to victory. Even if you have out macro'ed your opponent (siege tanks being the eternal balancer).
In TvZ you can not walk across the map and A-move to victory. Even if you have out macro'ed your opponent (banelings, infestors, surrounds, needing to siege, etc)
Why is it a problem that one can not walk across the map and A-move to victory in TvP?
Do break siege lines in TvT you need to drop and be around the map, to separate a mech army that isn't powerful when split up/moving. In TvZ you need to drop to separate ensure that you can set up your attack safely (and reposition their mutas).
These are skills that apply in every matchup, and are required in TvP as well. Drops are exceptionally powerful, you have sensor towers/scans which provide good awareness of attacks, and you have bunkers for the early game.
I do not claim to be a good terran, but since most of these complaint are geared to the the "problems in the lower leagues" I laugh that terrans find it difficult to win TvP, as nearly every low level protoss I'm come across can not split their armies properly to deal with two separate drops/attacks.
This isn't a design/balance/representation problem, as Naruto said it's a skill problem. The other terrans have all figured this out, and passed you in MMR. Keep playing and improve.
It isn't news that Terran is fine/good in low leagues. No one has said otherwise. It's once you get past there that the design flaws are evident.
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
its actually pro gamer friendly as it is advantaged at the theoretical highest level as proven by GSL results/player distribution
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
its actually pro gamer friendly as it is advantaged at the theoretical highest level as proven by GSL results/player distribution
Yes, because Terrans haven't been dropping out of GSL like flies and GSL also totally encompasses all pros. Blizzard should actually just immediately nerf whichever race is most represented in the GSL. It's pretty much the most concrete and definitive representation of balance.
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
its actually pro gamer friendly as it is advantaged at the theoretical highest level as proven by GSL results/player distribution
i said its more progamer friendly to play tvp, not sure if you were sarcastic or not since i didnt watch gsl recently
1) Those data are like 20 games. 2) Given your low APM (you seem to deem them high, but let's face it, you're slow as hell), you're not in a high enough league that your APM are important anyway. Focus on other things. 3) Don't shame us Terran by posting trollish posts like this, there is no problem with the game in platinium and below. Just make some bio units, stim and A-move them on the guy, that should be enough.
My play doesn't matter. My Lifetime TvZ Winrate is 71%, TvT 47% and TvP 40% (28% this season). The matchup is the problem, at least for my playstyle. Not that Protoss is imbalanced, but TvP is way harder for terrans. If I could just macro up until 200, push out and win... you can lose so easily (especially with bad micro like most of terrans have). Forcefields, Good Storm, Techswitch... TvZ and TvT seems so much more easy compared to TvP. You have to get lucky with Drops or have a huge economy- or Upgradeadvantage to win vs P. You can't argue that like 3 Terrans in Korea are fine in TvP, so it's balanced. 90% of all terrans are playing just for fun between bronze-low-mid masters. Blizzard even said TvP is favored for P outside of High Masters/Grandmasters.
I blame this entire issue not on balance, or game design, or any of the other things that have been discussed here.
It's Battlenet 2.0's fault.
If everyone active in this thread could easily play another race, we could just go find out if Terran was harder at lower levels, or if you could really just turtle and a-move as Toss into Masters.
But we can't. Smurfs cost $50. The custom game system is an abomination. There is no way to play 1v1s as another race without either destroying your rating on your main account, or using out-of-game tools to set up a practice league.
I play Protoss, and I feel like Terran is easy. Why? Well one time I accidentally selected Terran in a 1v1, had no idea what I was doing, and 1-based the crap out of my Masters league Protoss opponent. I won easily. That's my only experience playing Terran in a competitive 1v1 setting though, and that one game has forever clouded my perception of Terran. This is a problem. I'd like to play Terran more. I'd also like to play Zerg more. I feel like off-racing is important to an overall understanding of the game, and can make you a significantly better player. I just can't do it within Battlenet without jumping over a series of hurdles, and so I don't.
On March 14 2012 08:52 TrickyGilligan wrote: I blame this entire issue not on balance, or game design, or any of the other things that have been discussed here.
It's Battlenet 2.0's fault.
If everyone active in this thread could easily play another race, we could just go find out if Terran was harder at lower levels, or if you could really just turtle and a-move as Toss into Masters.
But we can't. Smurfs cost $50. The custom game system is an abomination. There is no way to play 1v1s as another race without either destroying your rating on your main account, or using out-of-game tools to set up a practice league.
I play Protoss, and I feel like Terran is easy. Why? Well one time I accidentally selected Terran in a 1v1, had no idea what I was doing, and 1-based the crap out of my Masters league Protoss opponent. I won easily. That's my only experience playing Terran in a competitive 1v1 setting though, and that one game has forever clouded my perception of Terran. This is a problem. I'd like to play Terran more. I'd also like to play Zerg more. I feel like off-racing is important to an overall understanding of the game, and can make you a significantly better player. I just can't do it within Battlenet without jumping over a series of hurdles, and so I don't.
I don't think anyone is arguing that tvp is bad if you're looking for a more elaborate way to perform a coin flip.
What irks me is the "imbalance" of the matchup, not T>P or T<P but how it is distributed throughout the match. Tanks being the focus of the anti 111 buff for toss kind of just makes me sigh; also it really illustrates the way things are handled.
Good terran play (pretty much anything except bioball) is honestly the most entertaining part of SC2 for me so it's sad to see protoss taking over (my race, but the most boring to watch especially ever since amulet was taken out...)
More important than BNet players not playing terran enough, SC2 has become relatively dull to watch for me. I hope HotS does a good job of bringing new interesting strategies back to the game. That includes better balance as the game shifts too much after patches (from almost no protoss to way too many for example).
On March 14 2012 08:52 TrickyGilligan wrote: I blame this entire issue not on balance, or game design, or any of the other things that have been discussed here.
It's Battlenet 2.0's fault.
If everyone active in this thread could easily play another race, we could just go find out if Terran was harder at lower levels, or if you could really just turtle and a-move as Toss into Masters.
But we can't. Smurfs cost $50. The custom game system is an abomination. There is no way to play 1v1s as another race without either destroying your rating on your main account, or using out-of-game tools to set up a practice league.
I play Protoss, and I feel like Terran is easy. Why? Well one time I accidentally selected Terran in a 1v1, had no idea what I was doing, and 1-based the crap out of my Masters league Protoss opponent. I won easily. That's my only experience playing Terran in a competitive 1v1 setting though, and that one game has forever clouded my perception of Terran. This is a problem. I'd like to play Terran more. I'd also like to play Zerg more. I feel like off-racing is important to an overall understanding of the game, and can make you a significantly better player. I just can't do it within Battlenet without jumping over a series of hurdles, and so I don't.
I don't think anyone is arguing that tvp is bad if you're looking for a more elaborate way to perform a coin flip.
What irks me is the "imbalance" of the matchup, not T>P or T<P but how it is distributed throughout the match. Tanks being the focus of the anti 111 buff ofr toss kind of just makes me sigh, it really illustrates the way things are handled.
Coinflips are only coinflips because players are bad and choose to do coinflippy shit instead of playing well. Look at PvP. It can either be incredibly in depth with macro games, it can come down to micro and you can overcome a bad "build", you can scout and reactively all-in...or you can blindly 1 gate blink and hope for the best, ending the game by the 10 minute mark. -
I think the biggest issue in TvP right now is that a lot of terrans feel that they can't actually full on attack a protoss army. Even admitting that if you defend, choke the protoss, and force them into you, and if you defend perfectly and set up perfectly you'll actually just roll the protoss, there are a alot of people that still say that isn't right. That you're forced into this "i have to out play him to win", or "well yeah but if i don't engage perfectly then gg warp in mechanic". Frankly at times I've been frustrated and been one of those people. As the match-up develops more and as players get better I think that will change. As people's mindsets get better or change I think it will be an easier thing to accept and something that won't even necessarily be true anymore, whether that be "yeah I'm defending no shit I should have to play better", to "it turns out i'm forcing myself into this situation by starving him, maybe i should play differently (and then getting into how to do that and people whining that they "cant" because they "have" to play that way)", to just...I don't know. "I can attack him I just have to do it differently". TLDR: terran are frustrated, they'll get over it, people will get over it as the game develops and people will be doing different things anyway, it's not bad design.
The thing is blizzard is in theory balancing the game for "EVERYONE" not just pros, and not just the casual players. TvP is a very hard match up, especially for those lower level players, because lets face it. MMM requires some sort of ability to move units out of storm. Its not that easy, but its not that hard. I think the hardest aspect of Terran is the macro unlike the other races we can't insntaly make an army. Terran is the hardest race to use, but if you can use it well, it looks OP.
On March 14 2012 08:52 TrickyGilligan wrote: I blame this entire issue not on balance, or game design, or any of the other things that have been discussed here.
It's Battlenet 2.0's fault.
If everyone active in this thread could easily play another race, we could just go find out if Terran was harder at lower levels, or if you could really just turtle and a-move as Toss into Masters.
But we can't. Smurfs cost $50. The custom game system is an abomination. There is no way to play 1v1s as another race without either destroying your rating on your main account, or using out-of-game tools to set up a practice league.
I play Protoss, and I feel like Terran is easy. Why? Well one time I accidentally selected Terran in a 1v1, had no idea what I was doing, and 1-based the crap out of my Masters league Protoss opponent. I won easily. That's my only experience playing Terran in a competitive 1v1 setting though, and that one game has forever clouded my perception of Terran. This is a problem. I'd like to play Terran more. I'd also like to play Zerg more. I feel like off-racing is important to an overall understanding of the game, and can make you a significantly better player. I just can't do it within Battlenet without jumping over a series of hurdles, and so I don't.
If you think these exact threads weren't around in Broodwar you are sadly mistaken
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote: For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
Well, I'm talking about balance. Balance is given when all races of equal chances of winning with the options that are given. I think on a very high level, both Protoss and Terran can win and that is all that matters in terms of balance. Terran was a 'noob' or low level unfriendly race in Broodwar as well, but it wasn't considered unfair.
You are completely right that if the Terran isn't good the Protoss will probably never be forced into actually doing something, but if the Terran is good, Protoss is very tricky and hard to play and I think you should know very well, as your Terran vs Protoss sometimes looks untouchable and sometimes not as good, but thats just how the game works out sometimes. If all you are attempts are shut down, he'll probably win...
In BW, you could win games over people through macro alone. Somebody in C simply wouldn't have as much stuff as somebody in A, even if they were following the same exact game plan. In SC2, that's not the case. Many people in Diamond have the macro to match a pro up until the first engagement, but they don't have unit composition and/or tactics to use them "correctly." In this way, the next skill step isn't always easy to figure out. I think it's especially hard for Terran.
EPT
