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On March 14 2012 05:18 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:08 HejaBVB wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zTqcp.png) That are my stats for s6. It just gets so annoying, if I lose against Protoss who are horrible and have ~42apm -_- Protoss can be so passive in this matchup and as terran we have to do Drops/Early Agression or you are just dead. Lategame TvP is just a Joke. Its just not possible to Micro BioBall, Ghosts and Vikings against a Deathball (for 95% of all terrans). 1) Those data are like 20 games. 2) Given your low APM (you seem to deem them high, but let's face it, you're slow as hell), you're not in a high enough league that your APM are important anyway. Focus on other things. 3) Don't shame us Terran by posting trollish posts like this, there is no problem with the game in platinium and below. Just make some bio units, stim and A-move them on the guy, that should be enough.
6 months ago stim + a move would have worked fine in plat.
However, I was watching a buddy of mine stream his games (he's in plat) and his opponents that were protoss were using storms and/or Collosi.
Even with a bigger army you don't A + move into that.
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On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL.
This.
I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell.
Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races.
For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level).
I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier.
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Laddered against a P today, who won very convincingly via good army composition of Collosus, HT, Archon, and zealots with stalkers to cover drops. He had BMd me about being so bad yadda yadda so I suggested a rematch only we swap races, after telling him the truth that I've only played ~10 games as protoss. Challenge accepted, and he Bms his way through the early game.
He 1 rax FEs, I 1 Gate FE into 3gaterobo. He's being passive and not getting upgrades as fast as I do because of chronoboost. Around 12 minutes he comes at me with MMM and I have 2collosus and I melt the army. I am building storm and waiting to counter with it. At this point we're both 3 base and I have an observer patrolling through drop areas to be safe.
Then I decided to go with 4 collosus, 2/2, and some HT with storm waiting. His army disintegrates in around 10 seconds and I take next to no damage. All the while I am doing silly things like slowly making units because of hotkey differences etc. I was amazed that I pressed T a few times and then morphed archons then warped more zealots to join the fight.
After the match he stopped BMing because he now knew how hard it is to engage a P army post 10 minutes because of the absurdly strong AoE. Ofc I am not an ace with protoss and he isn't with terran but I seemed to do better than him because of the protoss unit selection. I had pondered if I just wanted to win more I'd play Protoss. I said no, because I like how TvT works and the epic fights that are TvZ. Plus there is a huge difference between pro T and GM T in comparison to Z/P IMO (and that could be because I know how hard it is by hand to do things like splitting, multiple drops, adding production, scouting, kiting).
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On March 14 2012 05:25 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:18 ZenithM wrote:On March 14 2012 05:08 HejaBVB wrote:That are my stats for s6. It just gets so annoying, if I lose against Protoss who are horrible and have ~42apm -_- Protoss can be so passive in this matchup and as terran we have to do Drops/Early Agression or you are just dead. Lategame TvP is just a Joke. Its just not possible to Micro BioBall, Ghosts and Vikings against a Deathball (for 95% of all terrans). 1) Those data are like 20 games. 2) Given your low APM (you seem to deem them high, but let's face it, you're slow as hell), you're not in a high enough league that your APM are important anyway. Focus on other things. 3) Don't shame us Terran by posting trollish posts like this, there is no problem with the game in platinium and below. Just make some bio units, stim and A-move them on the guy, that should be enough. 6 months ago stim + a move would have worked fine in plat. However, I was watching a buddy of mine stream his games (he's in plat) and his opponents that were protoss were using storms and/or Collosi. Even with a bigger army you don't A + move into that.
ZenithM isn't even a terran player, he just pretends to be a terran player. It's so obvious upon reading all of his posts that he's not playing terran and most likely playing protoss. People shouldn't pretend to play a race when they really don't.
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On March 14 2012 02:10 EmilA wrote:
People seem to think that Terran having a steeper learning curve takes something away from them. It's glaringly obvious that terran has a lot of tools at our disposal, but many of them are borderline counterproductive if you're not at a certain skill level. I
If I send out one medivac to drop, it's most likely going to die without doing damage.
If I send out two in different directions, one being a 2x8 drop and the other a 1x8 drop, I can perhaps do some considerable damage to my opponents tech.
If I send out two drops while I'm moving my main army across the field while clearing creep and setting up siegetanks, I'll most likely win the game.
Add to that the insane reliance on bio micro. If you're being 1-a'ed by a ling-bling-muta force and you don't split, you're lucky if you get above 100 supply before Z has already spawned his reinforcements for a new 200/200 army. Of course you can win just as decisively with incredible micro.
I think most people can agree to Terran not being a reactionary race (of course we have to adapt to 1-2 base cheese, but besides), and past the first few leagues it becomes considerably harder to be the player that has to make something happen. It's even more frustrating to repeatedly TRY to make things happen and when it fails, you're drawn into a 15 minute endgame which you know you cannot possibly win.
It's demoralizing to know that Terran can't really get a viable lategame option until HotS hits and mech (hopefully) becomes viable.
Ït's funny you mention it, because in an attempt to be pro-like I've sent three medivacs worth of units to drop two different locations which lead to the protoss boxing his entire army and moving into my natural killing everything. There's more to drop play than simply trying to catch them off guard. If you don't have the army to handle a unit disadvantaged battle at home it could actually lose you the game to do a big drop.
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On March 14 2012 05:30 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:25 NoctemSC wrote:On March 14 2012 05:18 ZenithM wrote:On March 14 2012 05:08 HejaBVB wrote:That are my stats for s6. It just gets so annoying, if I lose against Protoss who are horrible and have ~42apm -_- Protoss can be so passive in this matchup and as terran we have to do Drops/Early Agression or you are just dead. Lategame TvP is just a Joke. Its just not possible to Micro BioBall, Ghosts and Vikings against a Deathball (for 95% of all terrans). 1) Those data are like 20 games. 2) Given your low APM (you seem to deem them high, but let's face it, you're slow as hell), you're not in a high enough league that your APM are important anyway. Focus on other things. 3) Don't shame us Terran by posting trollish posts like this, there is no problem with the game in platinium and below. Just make some bio units, stim and A-move them on the guy, that should be enough. 6 months ago stim + a move would have worked fine in plat. However, I was watching a buddy of mine stream his games (he's in plat) and his opponents that were protoss were using storms and/or Collosi. Even with a bigger army you don't A + move into that. ZenithM isn't even a terran player, he just pretends to be a terran player. It's so obvious upon reading all of his posts that he's not playing terran and most likely playing protoss. People shouldn't pretend to play a race when they really don't.
I was indeed playing Protoss, and I'm probably still Protoss at heart, but I did switch to Terran.
Actually I switched because I didn't want to play the race considered the easiest, which I think is quite more commendable than switching from Terran because you have to move your fingers to play.
I was diamond Protoss, but I don't ladder much, so that rank didn't mean much, and I kept it easily with Terran (I actually played a bit of random for portraits, and even with insta quitting every single one of my zerg games, I still didn't drop in MMR, because I kept a 80% winrate with P and T).
I don't pretend to play Terran, I do play Terran. However I won't pretend to be good at it, I'm diamond after all :D
Edit: And I did edit the post you quoted because it was too harsh. But honestly guys, if you just produce bio units and wait for your first 2 medivacs, you kill plat P without much problem... (obviously I didn't mean to just A-move against colossus and storm...just killl him before this point ;D)
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On March 14 2012 06:01 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 02:10 EmilA wrote:
People seem to think that Terran having a steeper learning curve takes something away from them. It's glaringly obvious that terran has a lot of tools at our disposal, but many of them are borderline counterproductive if you're not at a certain skill level. I
If I send out one medivac to drop, it's most likely going to die without doing damage.
If I send out two in different directions, one being a 2x8 drop and the other a 1x8 drop, I can perhaps do some considerable damage to my opponents tech.
If I send out two drops while I'm moving my main army across the field while clearing creep and setting up siegetanks, I'll most likely win the game.
Add to that the insane reliance on bio micro. If you're being 1-a'ed by a ling-bling-muta force and you don't split, you're lucky if you get above 100 supply before Z has already spawned his reinforcements for a new 200/200 army. Of course you can win just as decisively with incredible micro.
I think most people can agree to Terran not being a reactionary race (of course we have to adapt to 1-2 base cheese, but besides), and past the first few leagues it becomes considerably harder to be the player that has to make something happen. It's even more frustrating to repeatedly TRY to make things happen and when it fails, you're drawn into a 15 minute endgame which you know you cannot possibly win.
It's demoralizing to know that Terran can't really get a viable lategame option until HotS hits and mech (hopefully) becomes viable. Ït's funny you mention it, because in an attempt to be pro-like I've sent three medivacs worth of units to drop two different locations which lead to the protoss boxing his entire army and moving into my natural killing everything. There's more to drop play than simply trying to catch them off guard. If you don't have the army to handle a unit disadvantaged battle at home it could actually lose you the game to do a big drop.
If I had a nickel for every time I've lost a game like what you just described T.T;;
edit: @Zenith; if 102 apm is "slow as hell," is my 130 slow as hell too? I'm just curious because I'm not sure what people start calling "not slow as hell". yes, i really want to know ^^;
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They went to ipl tournament of champions
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I think I finally understand this thread.
"Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!"
"Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!"
"Those people are too good, they don't count."
"Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues."
"Those people are too bad, they don't count."
"Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race."
"I don't live there, those people don't count."
It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses.
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Even Goody switched to protoss (vs protoss) :D
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On March 14 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL. This. I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell. Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races. For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level). I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier.
Your claim seems to be that Protoss is so ridiculously easy mechanically. You say this despite saying in the same post:
1. That you were ranked down twice when you switched to protoss.
2. That you play siginificantly slower as protoss atm.
3. That if you had 1000 games, your protoss account is "easily going to be high diamond if not low masters", when your terran account already is masters.
It sounds to me as though you'd like to use this to claim that you are an expert on protoss, despite the above facts illustrating that you probably actually know relatively little about them.
Artosis thought we were the easiest race, too, when he played zerg. Now that he's played protoss for a couple seasons (and admittedly, there has been a patch or two which was unkind to PvZ) - he's changed his tune. I'm guaranteeing you after 6 months of protoss, you will too. Keep in touch.
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TvP is just a joke, thats all.. didnt play toss for over half a year and played few games, just rolling over terrans thats just not funny -.-
if you get through the early stages your set
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On March 14 2012 06:18 Champloo wrote:
Even Goody switched to protoss (vs protoss) :D
a sad day indeed TT
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On March 14 2012 06:06 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:01 Dalavita wrote:On March 14 2012 02:10 EmilA wrote:
People seem to think that Terran having a steeper learning curve takes something away from them. It's glaringly obvious that terran has a lot of tools at our disposal, but many of them are borderline counterproductive if you're not at a certain skill level. I
If I send out one medivac to drop, it's most likely going to die without doing damage.
If I send out two in different directions, one being a 2x8 drop and the other a 1x8 drop, I can perhaps do some considerable damage to my opponents tech.
If I send out two drops while I'm moving my main army across the field while clearing creep and setting up siegetanks, I'll most likely win the game.
Add to that the insane reliance on bio micro. If you're being 1-a'ed by a ling-bling-muta force and you don't split, you're lucky if you get above 100 supply before Z has already spawned his reinforcements for a new 200/200 army. Of course you can win just as decisively with incredible micro.
I think most people can agree to Terran not being a reactionary race (of course we have to adapt to 1-2 base cheese, but besides), and past the first few leagues it becomes considerably harder to be the player that has to make something happen. It's even more frustrating to repeatedly TRY to make things happen and when it fails, you're drawn into a 15 minute endgame which you know you cannot possibly win.
It's demoralizing to know that Terran can't really get a viable lategame option until HotS hits and mech (hopefully) becomes viable. Ït's funny you mention it, because in an attempt to be pro-like I've sent three medivacs worth of units to drop two different locations which lead to the protoss boxing his entire army and moving into my natural killing everything. There's more to drop play than simply trying to catch them off guard. If you don't have the army to handle a unit disadvantaged battle at home it could actually lose you the game to do a big drop. If I had a nickel for every time I've lost a game like what you just described T.T;; edit: @Zenith; if 102 apm is "slow as hell," is my 130 slow as hell too? I'm just curious because I'm not sure what people start calling "not slow as hell". yes, i really want to know ^^;
I'm mid-high masters and my apm is like 160-190. And I'm slow as hell.
And funny enough, I've trolled on my friends low masters name as P, and done a nexus first into 4 gate pressure, fast third, and just straight gateway units with a double forge and took games off mid masters terrans. I've played a collective 10 games of P and Z in SC2. It's funny, but I think it's really just innate skill playing against my main race.
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On March 14 2012 06:26 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL. This. I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell. Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races. For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level). I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier. Your claim seems to be that Protoss is so ridiculously easy mechanically. You say this despite saying in the same post: 1. That you were ranked down twice when you switched to protoss. 2. That you play siginificantly slower as protoss atm. 3. That if you had 1000 games, your protoss account is "easily going to be high diamond if not low masters", when your terran account already is masters. It sounds to me as though you'd like to use this to claim that you are an expert on protoss, despite the above facts illustrating that you probably actually know relatively little about them. Artosis thought we were the easiest race, too, when he played zerg. Now that he's played protoss for a couple seasons (and admittedly, there has been a patch or two which was unkind to PvZ) - he's changed his tune. I'm guaranteeing you after 6 months of protoss, you will too. Keep in touch.
I like to play protoss sometimes for the luls and I can assure you, the hardest part about laddering as toss is getting PvP/PvZ every game. You never get PvTs..
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On March 14 2012 06:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:I think I finally understand this thread. "Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!" "Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!" "Those people are too good, they don't count." "Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues." "Those people are too bad, they don't count." "Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race." "I don't live there, those people don't count." It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses.
Do you really think being overrepresented in the shit leagues is a good thing? Really?
The main point people are making is that Terran's learning curve is way, way steeper than that of Protoss/Zerg and thus the race is hard to perform with for non top masters koreans.
Terran is not even doing well on the KR/Taiwan ladder and they're going extinct on CN.
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On March 14 2012 06:26 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL. This. I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell. Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races. For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level). I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier. Your claim seems to be that Protoss is so ridiculously easy mechanically. You say this despite saying in the same post: 1. That you were ranked down twice when you switched to protoss. 2. That you play siginificantly slower as protoss atm. 3. That if you had 1000 games, your protoss account is "easily going to be high diamond if not low masters", when your terran account already is masters. It sounds to me as though you'd like to use this to claim that you are an expert on protoss, despite the above facts illustrating that you probably actually know relatively little about them. Artosis thought we were the easiest race, too, when he played zerg. Now that he's played protoss for a couple seasons (and admittedly, there has been a patch or two which was unkind to PvZ) - he's changed his tune. I'm guaranteeing you after 6 months of protoss, you will too. Keep in touch.
Artosis is the most biased guy in history of SC2. Don't think you can use him as a reference.
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Even Goody switched to protoss (vs protoss) :D
That's cuz Protoss is more mech than Terran Bio and Terran mech not viable vs toss.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 06:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:I think I finally understand this thread. "Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!" "Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!" "Those people are too good, they don't count." "Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues." "Those people are too bad, they don't count." "Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race." "I don't live there, those people don't count." It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses.
Alright. I am a platinum terran and I've probably played 1000 games with it including team games. So how about I switch to Protoss and see how I do, and you switch to terran and see how you do. Deal? We will post replays say 3 weeks from now.
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On March 14 2012 06:36 ilion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 06:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:I think I finally understand this thread. "Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!" "Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!" "Those people are too good, they don't count." "Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues." "Those people are too bad, they don't count." "Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race." "I don't live there, those people don't count." It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses. Alright. I am a platinum terran and I've probably played 1000 games with it including team games. So how about I switch to Protoss and see how I do, and you switch to terran and see how you do. Deal? We will post replays say 3 weeks from now.
I'd take you up on that. I'm a diamond toss and I have a smurf in plat that I went 4-0 with terran the other day with. Nothing cheesy either
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EPT
