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On March 14 2012 03:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:11 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:59 Big J wrote:On March 14 2012 02:32 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On March 14 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:[quote] No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races  Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed. wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up. When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to? but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race) http://drop.sc/132191http://drop.sc/132192if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like. and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents): http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jayyour turn... I think these might be the first replays posted in this entire thread. Big J gets points for backing up his claims and showing something productive. He showed that he, a high masters Zerg, can beat diamond players offracing as Terran. Nice. well, that was merely what I was claiming, and what ChaosTerran didn't believe without proof. It's only use is to back up my opinion, that there is nothing crazily hard about Terran and that bullshit like what ChaosTerran posted (certain Pro players would not be good with other races). I mean, I'm completly with you. An average Masters player (I may be high in my league, but my league is actually new; 650 points is somewhere around rank 25 in a most other Master leagues and my MMR shows this... I'm hardly ever playing top 8 Masters players) should obviously be able to offrace one league below, yet it seems like a lot of people in this thread claim that this isn't the case and those Master players would suck hardcore if it wasn't for their picked nonTerran mainrace. I understand what was your point. You have to take into account though that you are a Zerg player, problably used to play with 150+ apm. In other words, you are mechanically good enough to play against diamond players with Terran (probably masters too, though it would be significantly harder). What about a 80 apm Protoss player that is in masters. Do you think he could become masters as Terran, with the same level of mechanics he has now? depening on which (E)APM you use, I'm between 150-220 or 80-120 (according to scgears and my last 15games... btw: 5ZvTs, 5ZvZs, 5PvZs ) in my ladder games as zerg. Though I question whether you will find a lot of Protoss Master players with 80 APM, I do believe that an 80 apm Master Protoss player can get into Masters with Terran, though this would probably be the thing he would have to work on the hardest when switching. And I do believe this, because I have played against such slow Terrans as well. In fact of those 5games no Protoss had below 100apm against me, while one Terran (with Mech) and one Zerg (6min game) had 97. I mean, as my original post stated, I think I'm having more problems playing Protoss than Terran, I guess mostly because I'm not good when it comes down to forcefielding calmly and playing without any real mapcontrol (which bio and zerg usually have over protoss). Of course this could just be me, but there is obviously more to playing a race than just APM.
As an 80 APM protoss player I am quite bad with terran and zerg. I use them for fun sometimes when playing with friends, but am probably well below diamond level.
The way I see it: protoss does not need as much apm but requires a very good understanding of the matchups. I believe that protoss units just flat out lose to terran/zerg in a straight up units for much of the game, but that protoss has many tools they can use to prevent this and win, but protoss needs to learn these things rather than focus on mechanics.
To give you an example, I could execute and terran or zerg build in the first 8 minutes, but I would lose in the midgame when more apm is required. how many terran or zerg players could execute a PvT opening and make it safe against everything? There is a lot of knowledge required here. Bear in mind that in the first 8 minutes as protoss, one misplaced pylon, a building started 10 seconds too late, one too many or too few probes produced can all cost you the game.
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On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude.
So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite?
So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be?
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On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be?
I'll just make things simpler for you.
Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account.
This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters).
Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about.
If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant.
My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse).
About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that.
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On March 14 2012 03:40 phlebas wrote:
Why are there so less terrans? Because there is just no foreign player people can identify with. Like Idra, Stefano, Huk etc.
I think this is mostly right. If you look at the very best Terrans in the world right now, they are all Korean, and as we all know, Koreans are mystical beings that are born gods at Starcraft. With Zerg and Protoss, there are more "standard" players that do consistent things every game, whereas with Korean Terrans, they do more strange timings, proxies, etc, making them harder to mimic, and all those exotic styles of play are hard to execute at a lower level.
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I am just curious does strelok still play sc2?
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On March 14 2012 04:06 dde wrote:
I am just curious does strelok still play sc2?
Yeah he was just at IEM
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I'm actually glad that less terrans are playing. If they feel SC2 to be badly designed and inherently unfavorable to them, then quit. Simple as that. If enough people stop playing terran, Blizzard will have no choice but to rework race design. That or have it be a two race game. If you're not having fun playing terran due to matchup, excessive skill requirement.....prejudice from others or whatever then stop or switch races. Why subject yourselves to all these negative feelings.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:10 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
I'm actually glad that less terrans are playing. If they feel SC2 to be badly designed and inherently unfavorable to them, then quit. Simple as that. If enough people stop playing terran, Blizzard will have no choice but to rework race design. That or have it be a two race game. If you're not having fun playing terran due to matchup, excessive skill requirement.....prejudice from others or whatever then stop or switch races. Why subject yourselves to all these negative feelings.
You dont quit playing, you just balance whine like hell to get blizz to do something. Ask the protoss and zerg that, worked very well for them (I laugh at anyone who says z and p learned to innovate - they got everything handed to them by blizz). There is no where near enough terran whine on the forums so you must increase the level 10 times to get a buff.
Blizzard is like parents, if you cry hard enough you will get that new toy
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I hope they don't change terran at all to make it easier. I don't want the game easier for me as terran, I want the game (specifically TvP) harder for the other races. Make micro more demanding or something, Idk. I like playing terran but I just hate getting destroyed by amove chargelot/archon/colossus 
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On March 14 2012 04:37 IMoperator wrote:I hope they don't change terran at all to make it easier. I don't want the game easier for me as terran, I want the game (specifically TvP) harder for the other races. Make micro more demanding or something, Idk. I like playing terran but I just hate getting destroyed by amove chargelot/archon/colossus
This. 100% this.
I don't want Terran easier. I want to micro my units a lot otherwise i die. Having a fragile army with huge dps is a lot of fun in RTS.
But you gotta agree that it's sometimes a bit unfair in comparaison of other race units. Upgraded chargelots warpin make my brain hurts.
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On March 14 2012 04:40 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:37 IMoperator wrote:I hope they don't change terran at all to make it easier. I don't want the game easier for me as terran, I want the game (specifically TvP) harder for the other races. Make micro more demanding or something, Idk. I like playing terran but I just hate getting destroyed by amove chargelot/archon/colossus This. 100% this. I don't want Terran easier. I want to micro my units a lot otherwise i die. Having a fragile army with huge dps is a lot of fun in RTS. But you gotta agree that it's sometimes a bit unfair in comparaison of other race units. Upgraded chargelots warpin make my brain hurts.
Call it balance whine, call it QQ fest, call it anything. It is true, terrans are disappearing from ladder. I personally believe it is because in order to really do well, in the current state of the game, you really, REALLY, have to micro well and stuff. Therefore, it scares terrans away that simply can't keep up with the "pressure" from laddering (YOUR rank is at stake) and microing.
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On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that.
You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.
As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back.
Terran is not weak, guys.
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On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys.
I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL.
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On March 14 2012 04:06 dde wrote:
I am just curious does strelok still play sc2?
was top 5 EU GM before going to IEM
On topic: Terran has very good role modes - Nada, Boxer Mvp Mkp etc... but seems like a very generic race that could be boring at not pro level...I mean protoss has warpgate tech, zerg has this swarming effect, while Terran seems very generic like any other RTS, workers build (not warp, not morph) Buildings build 1 or 2 units at a time...Thats why I stopped playing terran. Well and also after being nerfed so much some of them just probably just scared and switched to Zerg/Protoss
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On March 14 2012 03:40 phlebas wrote:
Why are there so less terrans? Because there is just no foreign player people can identify with. Like Idra, Stefano, Huk etc.
I agree with this. There are very few english speaking high level terran streams. The only one that I have seen regularly with a cam or speaking on their stream is DeMuslim. And there are so many high level toss and zergs that have english streams.
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On March 14 2012 03:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:11 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:59 Big J wrote:On March 14 2012 02:32 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On March 14 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:[quote] No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed. wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up. When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to? but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race) http://drop.sc/132191http://drop.sc/132192if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like. and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents): http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jayyour turn... I think these might be the first replays posted in this entire thread. Big J gets points for backing up his claims and showing something productive. He showed that he, a high masters Zerg, can beat diamond players offracing as Terran. Nice. well, that was merely what I was claiming, and what ChaosTerran didn't believe without proof. It's only use is to back up my opinion, that there is nothing crazily hard about Terran and that bullshit like what ChaosTerran posted (certain Pro players would not be good with other races). I mean, I'm completly with you. An average Masters player (I may be high in my league, but my league is actually new; 650 points is somewhere around rank 25 in a most other Master leagues and my MMR shows this... I'm hardly ever playing top 8 Masters players) should obviously be able to offrace one league below, yet it seems like a lot of people in this thread claim that this isn't the case and those Master players would suck hardcore if it wasn't for their picked nonTerran mainrace. I understand what was your point. You have to take into account though that you are a Zerg player, problably used to play with 150+ apm. In other words, you are mechanically good enough to play against diamond players with Terran (probably masters too, though it would be significantly harder). What about a 80 apm Protoss player that is in masters. Do you think he could become masters as Terran, with the same level of mechanics he has now? depening on which (E)APM you use, I'm between 150-220 or 80-120 (according to scgears and my last 15games... btw: 5ZvTs, 5ZvZs, 5PvZs ) in my ladder games as zerg. Though I question whether you will find a lot of Protoss Master players with 80 APM, I do believe that an 80 apm Master Protoss player can get into Masters with Terran, though this would probably be the thing he would have to work on the hardest when switching. And I do believe this, because I have played against such slow Terrans as well. In fact of those 5games no Protoss had below 100apm against me, while one Terran (with Mech) and one Zerg (6min game) had 97. I mean, as my original post stated, I think I'm having more problems playing Protoss than Terran, I guess mostly because I'm not good when it comes down to forcefielding calmly and playing without any real mapcontrol (which bio and zerg usually have over protoss). Of course this could just be me, but there is obviously more to playing a race than just APM.
I don't know man.. I'm pretty much a stereotype terran like in this thread who is tilted as fuck in tvp. But I don't think I've ever had a protoss who had better SQ, APM or EAPM. And I average like 110 eapm 170 apm. My mechanics aren't perfect, but they are WAY better then protoss players in diamond. I've recently been focussing more on fundamentals and I'm like 10-2 with terran just by focussing on macro so maybe I've finally reached the point of believing that macro will get me to masters. Not vs protoss though, luckily there's 111.
EDIT: for clarification - I'm a diamond terran.
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On March 14 2012 04:37 IMoperator wrote:I hope they don't change terran at all to make it easier. I don't want the game easier for me as terran, I want the game (specifically TvP) harder for the other races. Make micro more demanding or something, Idk. I like playing terran but I just hate getting destroyed by amove chargelot/archon/colossus
I can agree with this sentiment. Terran feels like it's in a good place in terms of skill requirement to be good, and we see from stats that Terran is the race most likely to see higher skilled players advance in tournaments, with Protoss being the least likely (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317571).
That data shows TvT to be the #1 match-up where the pro is most likely to win, followed by Protoss and Zerg pros not having to worry about Terran scrubs, while pro Terrans have to worry more about losing to Zerg and Protoss scrubs (surprise, surprise). Then we see the P and Z match-ups holding much greater volatility, until we hit PvP with a 1 in 4 chance of a scrub upsetting a pro.
As far as I can tell, that certainly seems to show that the skill issue lay more with the other races, rather than with Terran. TvT the least volatile match-up, while ZvZ and PvP are the most volatile? Yeah... we also see TvT being the most "fleshed out" mirror in high-level competitive play. I'm honestly of the opinion that there are major design flaws with Zerg and Protoss in SC2 at the moment.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zTqcp.png)
That are my stats for s6. It just gets so annoying, if I lose against Protoss who are horrible and have ~42apm -_- Protoss can be so passive in this matchup and as terran we have to do Drops/Early Agression or you are just dead. Lategame TvP is just a Joke. Its just not possible to Micro BioBall, Ghosts and Vikings against a Deathball (for 95% of all terrans).
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Terran's are making a come back I think. Last season I might get 1/10 TvT's, but lately I'm running about 4/10 TvT. Maybe its just luck of the draw on my part, but TvT is becoming a lot more frequent recently.
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On March 14 2012 05:08 HejaBVB wrote:That are my stats for s6. It just gets so annoying, if I lose against Protoss who are horrible and have ~42apm -_- Protoss can be so passive in this matchup and as terran we have to do Drops/Early Agression or you are just dead. Lategame TvP is just a Joke. Its just not possible to Micro BioBall, Ghosts and Vikings against a Deathball (for 95% of all terrans).
Edit: Nvm was too harsh.
What league are you in?
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EPT
