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Terran just need to start researching medivac energy and reaper speed T need to start learning their entire arsenal!
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On March 13 2012 22:30 labbe wrote:I think Terran and Zerg are pretty much on the same level of difficulty, with the exception that Zerg is easier late-game. Protoss is significantly easier than both though. Hence why I play Protoss 
Well thats not true at all, I have played both terran and zerg. And terran is much harder to play then zerg. You need to do so much more things with terran then with zerg. Thats actually why I have start playing terran as of latly. And for me TvP is the most funny mu of them all. Its so hard. And when you win you actuallye think that you deserve to win.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 00:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I think a lot of people are confusing balanced difficulty and balanced power.
Assuming Terran is about the right power but reaching that potential is harder (I think that's right and the general consensus) then a straight buff is a terrible option that only leads to Terran domination at the top. Instead, Zerg and (particularly) Protoss need to get more of the versatile opportunities to display skill that Terran has with more emphasis on multi-tasking and micro across all skill levels.
The most simple change that could be made is removal of all the awful units which inspire terrible, low skill gameplay: get rid of the Roach, Colossus and Marauder. Obviously you'd need to make changes to other units to make this balanced, but man it would be good.
... :O WTF???
Allright lets remove rouches and have fun against Sieg Tanks. Dumb Idea Man.
Every unit got a place in Starcraft (instead of carrier). You need these units. So removing units is maybe the dumbest thing ever...
Its all about time. As Example, Protoss can have 3/3 if Terran is upgrading 2/2. Or Ghosts dont steal all Mana with an EMP.
Thinks like that makes a game Balanced or Unbalanced. And these are kind of think where blizzard have to look at.
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On March 14 2012 00:29 ShiiQ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 00:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I think a lot of people are confusing balanced difficulty and balanced power.
Assuming Terran is about the right power but reaching that potential is harder (I think that's right and the general consensus) then a straight buff is a terrible option that only leads to Terran domination at the top. Instead, Zerg and (particularly) Protoss need to get more of the versatile opportunities to display skill that Terran has with more emphasis on multi-tasking and micro across all skill levels.
The most simple change that could be made is removal of all the awful units which inspire terrible, low skill gameplay: get rid of the Roach, Colossus and Marauder. Obviously you'd need to make changes to other units to make this balanced, but man it would be good. ... :O WTF??? Allright lets remove rouches and have fun against Sieg Tanks. Dumb Idea Man. Every unit got a place in Starcraft (instead of carrier). You need these units. So removing units is maybe the dumbest thing ever... Its all about time. As Example, Protoss can have 3/3 if Terran is upgrading 2/2. Or Ghosts dont steal all Mana with an EMP. Thinks like that makes a game Balanced or Unbalanced. And these are kind of think where blizzard have to look at.
Did the last sentence in my post not show up for you or something?
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On March 13 2012 21:22 karpo wrote:
Can the terrans who are so horribly mistreated and sad about the matchup actually do something about it? This thread has turned into terrans using anything to prove they need changes, but they never present those changes or argue their strong points versus their weak objectively. It's look more and more like a b.net thread where people just air their grievances about a matchup over and over.
Terrans don't need changes. The race is fine. What would be nice is if Blizzard figures out a way to make zerg and protoss as mechanically demanding to play for lower level players without screwing over actual balance at the top level.
Oh, and get rid of warp gates.
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On March 14 2012 00:25 crydee wrote:
Terran just need to start researching medivac energy and reaper speed T need to start learning their entire arsenal!
Medivac energy upgrade is used for faking cloack in TvT
Reaper speed is used in a few build : lategame TvP harass ( long seen tho ), TvT reaper hellion drop opening, etc
The days of Terran having billion of things to experiments with are long done. The last is the Raven and only the pro level didn't pick up on lategame TvZ ravens.
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On March 14 2012 00:01 petro1987 wrote:
[...] retarted [...]
That describes perfectly how I feel about this thread by now.
Seriously, I always thought only our Zerg buddies on TL are somehow bound to whine about balance 24/7, but its a little bit sad to see that the terran players aren't better in that regard. 
Get over it and play the game instead of whining about it.
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I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
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On March 14 2012 00:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
To be fair, the ZvP problem is on both sides, with the matchup feeling relatively unstable as a whole. From talking to friends and watching matches of PvZ, both sides feel incredibly vulnerable pretty much the entire game. In essence, fixing the PvZ matchup would be a task that probably wouldn't fix anything in TvP, or ruin it even more.
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On March 14 2012 00:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
Seriously, where did you take that from? If anything the poll says that 63% finds TvP their worse matchup. How is that quite few? You mean 929 (as I write this reply) is quite few? Do you realize that not everybody that plays this game will answer this thread right?
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Funny...I switched to terran for the sheer fact that every other game i played from gold to diamond was ZvZ.
That shit is an art of it's own, and so i moved to terran.
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On March 14 2012 01:27 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 00:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
Seriously, where did you take that from? If anything the poll says that 63% finds TvP their worse matchup. How is that quite few? You mean 929 (as I write this reply) is quite few? Do you realize that not everybody that plays this game will answer this thread right?
You don't need everybody that plays the game to respond, or even a "large" response. You just need a sample of players that represent the common players of SC2. At the very least, I'd say the poll results reflect an important/large subset of the SC2 player base.
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On March 14 2012 01:27 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 00:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
Seriously, where did you take that from? If anything the poll says that 63% finds TvP their worse matchup. How is that quite few? You mean 929 (as I write this reply) is quite few? Do you realize that not everybody that plays this game will answer this thread right?
Man you're really invested in this. You seem so quick to jump on anyone not ageeing with you.
Also:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quite_a_few
Maybe you should cool down and actually read what people post.
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On March 14 2012 01:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 01:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 00:58 p1cKLes wrote:
I think the polls at the very least indicate that there are quite a few Terrans and zerg for that matter that are having a lot of difficulties with Protoss. Obviously, this isn't an indicator of balance, but an interesting poll never the less.
Seriously, where did you take that from? If anything the poll says that 63% finds TvP their worse matchup. How is that quite few? You mean 929 (as I write this reply) is quite few? Do you realize that not everybody that plays this game will answer this thread right? Man you're really invested in this. You seem so quick to jump on anyone not ageeing with you. Also: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quite_a_fewMaybe you should cool down and actually read what people post.
My bad, I've read "quite few" when in fact he wrote "quite a few". Sorry.
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People seem to think that Terran having a steeper learning curve takes something away from them. It's glaringly obvious that terran has a lot of tools at our disposal, but many of them are borderline counterproductive if you're not at a certain skill level. I
If I send out one medivac to drop, it's most likely going to die without doing damage.
If I send out two in different directions, one being a 2x8 drop and the other a 1x8 drop, I can perhaps do some considerable damage to my opponents tech.
If I send out two drops while I'm moving my main army across the field while clearing creep and setting up siegetanks, I'll most likely win the game.
Add to that the insane reliance on bio micro. If you're being 1-a'ed by a ling-bling-muta force and you don't split, you're lucky if you get above 100 supply before Z has already spawned his reinforcements for a new 200/200 army. Of course you can win just as decisively with incredible micro.
I think most people can agree to Terran not being a reactionary race (of course we have to adapt to 1-2 base cheese, but besides), and past the first few leagues it becomes considerably harder to be the player that has to make something happen. It's even more frustrating to repeatedly TRY to make things happen and when it fails, you're drawn into a 15 minute endgame which you know you cannot possibly win.
It's demoralizing to know that Terran can't really get a viable lategame option until HotS hits and mech (hopefully) becomes viable.
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On March 13 2012 23:43 ShiiQ wrote:
So i read the most of the post now and im realy not sure what your problem is?
Protoss is to strong in TvP? Against what? Bio,Mech?!
You guys can QQ as much as you want. But this is no way to fix it. Try new stuff. How about building 2 ravens with PDD everytime? You can snipe Colosses so easy with Vikings then. Or how about BC's Ghost and "NUKES". Avilo as example started playing BC against P at lategame.
Switching Race or how they say in a FPS "Winning Team Joiner" are fully retarded in my opinion. You have to try and test new BO's and Strategys instead of QQ why the old BO dosent work anymore.
Greetings ShiiQ
Btw. Sorry for my bad english. But i hope you understand what i try to say.
ALL of this has been tried. It just isn't effective enough, so eventually people get bored of having to play insanely well (at least compared to their skill level) to win against P. I also seem to recall a lot of Terran players saying that Protoss should experiment against 1/1/1 so it really angers me when (I assume you're Protoss) Protoss players post the same back.
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On March 14 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed. wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up. When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to? but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race) http://drop.sc/132191http://drop.sc/132192if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like. and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents): http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jayyour turn...
I think these might be the first replays posted in this entire thread. Big J gets points for backing up his claims and showing something productive.
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I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in.
I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/
My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/
My Main and only played account this season
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On March 14 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed. wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up. When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to? but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race) http://drop.sc/132191http://drop.sc/132192if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like. and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents): http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jayyour turn... I think these might be the first replays posted in this entire thread. Big J gets points for backing up his claims and showing something productive.
He showed that he, a high masters Zerg, can beat diamond players offracing as Terran. Nice.
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On March 14 2012 00:44 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 21:22 karpo wrote:
Can the terrans who are so horribly mistreated and sad about the matchup actually do something about it? This thread has turned into terrans using anything to prove they need changes, but they never present those changes or argue their strong points versus their weak objectively. It's look more and more like a b.net thread where people just air their grievances about a matchup over and over. Terrans don't need changes. The race is fine. What would be nice is if Blizzard figures out a way to make zerg and protoss as mechanically demanding to play for lower level players without screwing over actual balance at the top level. Oh, and get rid of warp gates.
Post like just depress me. As if the larve inject mechanic is easy, or keeping up with chronoboost every 20 seconds is not demanding. People make jokes about it, but even warping in units and keeping your pylons close to your army to re-enforce effectively can be a challenge. Controling armies with ground units that move at different speeds, creep spread, overlord placement and the thousand other things that all the races do to give them an edge. Its like none of that is real and mules are the most challenging thing in the world to use.
Seriously, I wonder if these terrans really lose to A-moved armiers. If we watch the replays(if they are ever posted), would we see that the protoss used blink stalkers to snipe the medivacs, set up a pylon in the back field to re-enforce with zealots and everything else we do to get an edge? Would we really see A-moved zerglings and banelings?
I kinda of doubt it. But I also doubt those replays will ever be posted(with the exception of Big J).
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EPT
