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On March 13 2012 20:39 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:33 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 20:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 19:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues? Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed. You do realize that this influences high level play a lot? On average even pros will make more mistakes with it then, which influences highlevel balance. Such changes from autopilot to manual control always need buffs going with them (like a cooldown buff for the charge or a speedbuff) so that this can balance out with the less optimal control (on average). Of course i realize. I said "fixes lower league TvP", I didn't mean that should be done because it affects GM as well. The problem in lower leagues is now that A-moving protoss decimates Terran with 0 APM because of autocast charge. edit: It's like add a autocast stutterstep to MMM and then lower leagues will work. Then both players can 0 APM and watch the battle happen. Of course that makes no sense. The lower league people should just practice more and to engage better. This sort of stuff is asking to make the game dumber because they don't want to take the time to practice. And seriously, when people say "the protoss a-moves over me and wins", I always assumed that the terran also A-moves their army and prays for victory as well, but at this point it doesn't work out. The bolded part is exactly the point. I'm glad you understood it too. Terran is disappearing from ladder because it takes them a lot more time and effort to "practive more and engage better" then it takes a protoss player. There are tons of players who just want play every now and then and not grind their ass off trying to learn that. And many of them have now stopped playing, hence "terran is disappearing from ladder". I think that was the original question in OP ? edit: I play protoss
This is exactly the point that most don't understand (or rather don't accept). I'm glad that you as a Protoss player can understand and actually discuss about it.
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Well i think it's idiotic ku defend a race purely because you play it. And i have also played terran a lot earlier.
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On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races 
Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race.
I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players.
This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth.
I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P.
Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument.
I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder.
People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell.
But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like.
edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that.
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No its simple really. The mechanics of terran that make pros so good are the same ones that make diamond league players bad. As zerg and protoss there really is no equivalent to terran micro. So their base commbat mechanics have to be to a degree that it wrecks terran amove, but has the chance to lose to good engagement micro. On combat with the right compositions the burdens on the terran to make his units costeffective. Same goes for harass. Ever hear of a 13kill mutalisk? What about a banshee? Yeah. Big difference.
The tipping point is really fine and I'm a bit concerned about the constant t nerfs because if blizzard is really taking tournaments like the gsl/mlg into account they might have dificulty determining if t won because of imba or because the erran player was just better than his opponnt. If a protoss was the best player in the world no one would have qualms of t op... but that hasn't been the case. And in the beginning of the game, tt was undeniably op.
Its certainly ossible to win but when blizzard designed gerran as the apm race this was guaranteed to happn. Just like in bw. T so bad on ladder. Should just quit. But 3/4 bonjwas were T. Because t too gud at high levels TT. In this sense it is op and underpowered. Mostly because were not perfect. (Op in theory however)
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I really hope blizzard will take the other 99% of players into consideration with hots instead of only the very best because without one of the races existing on ladder the game is less fun to play and also will have less success as an esport as a result.
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Terran is fun to play. Heres a hints for terrans with problems with Protoss:
Try to do as much damage as you can with your medivac/stim timing and abuse your midgame strenght vs protoss. Dont rush to ghosts. Midgame/earlygame is where you need to get an advantage to be able to win in lategame. Focus on strong timings!
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On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races + Show Spoiler +
Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race.
I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players.
This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth.
I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P.
Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument.
I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder.
People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell.
But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like.
edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that.
So after posting this wall of text trying to prove your point that terran is oh-so-hard to play, what's you endgame? What do you want changed and how? Who in the world benefits from you crying over how hard terran is and how extremely simple protoss is, that even people who shouldn't be able to go pro do based on what race they picked?
Can the terrans who are so horribly mistreated and sad about the matchup actually do something about it? This thread has turned into terrans using anything to prove they need changes, but they never present those changes or argue their strong points versus their weak objectively. It's look more and more like a b.net thread where people just air their grievances about a matchup over and over.
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On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that.
I'd say you're pretty much right about everything, maybe with the exception of if some people you mentioned would be pros if they played Terran. We can't really know it. Maybe if Destiny and Incontrol were playing Terran from the beggining they could have improved the mechanics that are needed to be a good Terran. I guess what you're really trying to say is: with mechanics that they possess right now, they wouldn't be considered pros with Terran.
And about people realizing that Terran is harder to play at lower levels, at least. I think eventually everyone will pretty much agree on that. In BW, this same issue has been discussed to death and eventually everybody came to the agreement that Terran is harder at lower levels. But then again the BW community is very mature about all this. Most players have played all the races a lot and they actually can analyze things objectively.
Like you said, most people that come here to deny that terran is harder at lower levels, never even bothered to play Terran in ladder. And then why they deny it? I guess people have a hard time accepting that they play an easier (not easy) race. It's a psychological thing.
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Holy moly! This is a Terran self-pity thread if I ever saw one!
There have been less Terran players since the beginning of the game, even when they were completely overpowering the other races.
Nothing has changed except the fact that the game has become balanced in the meantime.
And the fact that something requires "more skills" really makes no sense, since if you have more skill you'd just play better and be able to utilize your units more efficiently.
I'm high master Zerg and there is a buttload of stuff that I don't have the ability to do while doing everything else.
And if you think you are arguing that a random player would be able to be higher on the ladder if he played a different race then please stop right now cause that is impossible to prove.
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On March 13 2012 21:22 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races + Show Spoiler +
Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race.
I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players.
This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth.
I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P.
Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument.
I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder.
People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell.
But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like.
edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that.
So after posting this wall of text trying to prove your point that terran is oh-so-hard to play, what's you endgame? What do you want changed and how? Who in the world benefits from you crying over how hard terran is and how extremely simple protoss is, that even people who shouldn't be able to go pro do based on what race they picked? Can the terrans who are so horribly mistreated and sad about the matchup actually do something about it? This thread has turned into terrans using anything to prove they need changes, but they never present those changes or argue their strong points versus their weak objectively. It's look more and more like a b.net thread where people just air their grievances about a matchup over and over.
It's too late to really change anything in WoL, our only hope is HotS. Blizzard have acknowledged that terran is doing very bad at the lower levels and that terran is the hardest race to learn (david kim said this in one of his blog posts). It's up to blizzard to make changes to the race dynamics in HotS, a buff/nerf to a certain unit won't change how hard a race is.
Ideally they will make protoss and zerg harder to play, I like that terran is challenging, but what I dislike is that I lose to people with much lower apm and who do much less than me in game(read: camp on 3 base then move out with deathball). I know how hard both sides are and from my own experience I can guarantee you that protoss is alot easier to play than terran, at least in TvP. I find it hard to comment on PvZ because I don't understand the matchup well enough to really come to any conclusions. But my own experience basically reflects the polls in this thread. I find PvT extremely easy, PvZ very hard, I find TvT extremely easy and TvP extremely hard. However PvZ is more down to my inexperience of the matchup, I guess once I understand it better it won't be as though for me, but I'm relatively new to protoss, so that will take some time and learning.
Point is, that even in the polls there is a clear trend that for P players PvT seems easy, for Z players ZvT seems easy but for terran players only their mirror matchup seems to be "easy". Now, this is exactly like my own experience and you know there is something wrong with a race when most of the players think their strongest matchup is their mirror. (which is really sad for yet another reason, I never get to play TvT lol, I play 45% Z and 45% P and maybe 10% T, now I'm not even kidding when I say this, TvT is so rare for me I feel like it's practically non-existetn as a matchup anymore.
I can't give you a suggestion how to make Z and P harder to play, that's up to Blizzard, but I can certainly complain about, because I personally feel that something is very wrong with this game and what else is there for me to do other than to simply point it out and make it known? I'm not the only one who feels like this, as you can see most terrans feel like our race lacks something in the non-mirror matchup.
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On March 13 2012 21:39 Cereb wrote:
Holy moly! This is a Terran self-pity thread if I ever saw one!
There have been less Terran players since the beginning of the game, even when they were completely overpowering the other races.
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Fail 
Your gut feeling < facts. Check sc2ranks.com if you like. I don't understand why people post things like this.
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Playing tvp is like trying getting a girl. you can open with a aggresive 2 rax, be the mysterious type with a 1 rax expo or a 111 sexual assault. Mid game you gotta find out her view point of you. If she playing the "6 gate im giving you 1 date and thats it" kinda thing you better get your act together. While if you both play too passive then you end up into the 20 min friend zone, so you gotta drop hints here and there. if you get into the friend zone , now u got 1 chance to confess and Emp her HTs. if you fuck up its GG. so yea being a terran is tough you can end up being a player or a 40 year old virgin . Were all try hard here MEANWHILE.on facebook we have the girls posting " Apm doesn't matter" or " why are guys such assholes" every1 comments and comforts them and agree. but for guys "apm DOES matter" and if we post "Girls are lil bitches" we get a few likes here and there but no1 gives a fuck. So we just gotta man up.
(no im not calling toss players girls or bitches in case of any1 missunderstands, just an analogy)
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On March 13 2012 22:07 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 21:39 Cereb wrote:
Holy moly! This is a Terran self-pity thread if I ever saw one!
There have been less Terran players since the beginning of the game, even when they were completely overpowering the other races.
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Fail Your gut feeling < facts. Check sc2ranks.com if you like. I don't understand why people post things like this.
Well, they gotta come up with made up facts to sustain their opinions. Otherwise, their opinions would be completely off base and biased.
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I think Terran and Zerg are pretty much on the same level of difficulty, with the exception that Zerg is easier late-game. Protoss is significantly easier than both though. Hence why I play Protoss
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On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:On March 12 2012 17:39 paradisefar wrote:
Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions... I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc. What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues?
Look at wow and how that turned out we don't need casuals who form bad opinions on something they don't get
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On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that.
sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level).
From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win.
For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally.
Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins":
you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun;
you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun;
you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army.
That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill")
Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes).
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The only MU I play anymore is PvZ
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On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes).
This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed.
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Funny that there Terrans are least represented on ladder and yet every win I get bitched at for playing the "cheated" race of Terran.
Ah well.
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EPT
