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On March 13 2012 06:20 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:06 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 06:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that. Khaydarin amulet was removed because it was retardedly strong in combination with warp gates. The reason protoss endgame is so strong is because of warp gates. The game is stale because of protoss, and protoss is stale because of warp gates. Noticing a trend? And yes, statistically balanced games still make for boring matchups if race x is on the clock to do crippling damage and race z is building up for that one attack because the rest becomes cruise control to victory. Khaydarin amulet can come back if they get rid of or change warp gates. The mechanic is ruining every protoss matchup by itself. This is something common I've seen that really bothers me. Basically, what you're saying is that win % isn't a good way to look at balance, because even if it's around 50%, it could be that one race wins all the games early, and the other wins them all late. Cool, I can dig it, that makes sense to me. Here's what doesn't make sense. In order to have 50% balance, for every game that Protoss wins late game, Terran has to win one early game. Otherwise the matchup won't be close to 50%. So, if Protoss is overpowered late game, then Terran has to be overpowered early game, or we'd see it reflected in the overall win %s for the matchup. So yes, please go ahead and buff Terran late game. You just have to understand that without an equivalent early game nerf, the matchup is going to go away from 50% and swing strongly into Terran favored. I'm not calling for the removal of marauders or anything massive, I just want some aknowledgement from Terrans that maybe MULE oversaturation needs to be looked at. Because remember, just because it's not reflected in the %s doesn't mean that it's not a problem.
Terran is actually dominant in the mid game when their upgrades finish and they have a decent medivac count. This is the timing period where they get to drop and harass the protoss to attempt getting a lead large enough to win later on if not outright kill them. It's pretty obvious that if terran has shit win rates at the endgame they need to have high win rates at another point of time in the matchup to make it balanced. However there's also the difficulty of playing each race to be taken in consideration, but people have gone through that already, so I won't.
On March 13 2012 06:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I completely disagree. The combination of Warp Gates and Khaydarin Amulet is precisely what made Templar based PvT so great. It afforded Protoss incredible defensive capability, but only moderate offensive capability, which is exactly what Protoss is lacking, and what makes for good positional play (much like Siege Tanks do for Terrans).
How do you figure Warp Gates in general are ruining late game?
Khaydarin amulet made protoss virtually unpushable in the late game. Not only would the terran never be able to push into the opponents base to do damage after a close trade that ended in his favor because all the ghosts/medivacs/bio would either be mostly dead or dying. Add this to the fact that terran generally doesn't trade well against protoss in the lategame and you're just adding insult to injury. Khaydarin amulet also didn't take any skill or planning to pull off whatsoever. It was basically a storm on demand wherever you had a pylon nearby, and you could chain them up until the army was dead.
The reason warp gates are ruining late game is because they allow protoss to pool up gateways and to frontload all of their production for a push while the opponent is scrambling to rebuild their army after a trade, and they ensure that the protoss can never be caught out of position or taken advantage of via drops since they can simply warp in and defend. They can also instantly remake their army with the ideal gateway composition to deal with anything the opponent will have at the time.Add to this that chargelots are throwaway minerals that always bring back their investment by either putting a lot of pressure by doing pure damage or forcing the opponent to kite them for an extended period of time allowing the protoss to do other things.
Chargelot warpins by themselves are a great defensive tool. Khaydarin amulet on top of that would break the game.
You might say that SC vs San was one of your favorite series. All I saw was San literally being carried by warp in storms while massively being outplayed by SC.
And this is only lategame TvP. ZvP and PvP all have their own issues, and a lot of them stem from warp gates. I'd be glad if they either outright removed warp gates and rebalanced protoss to compensate for it, or make long range warp ins either impossible or increase the cooldown of the warp gates so you couldn't operate at peak efficiency while warping in at long range.
On March 13 2012 06:36 Sated wrote:
Maybe T is overpowered compared to Z and this is leading to him being matched against stronger Protoss players.
Prove me wrong.
(Hint: You can't.)
Actually you can. If you check the TvT and see that the win rates are higher as well as the TvZ winrates it'd imply that the TvP matchup is the issue. Add to the fact that zergs in general struggle less against terran compared to protoss.
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On March 13 2012 06:45 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:43 Blasterion wrote:
Fellow Dominion Soldier, It is a Dark Age for the Terran race, but we cannot falter.
Like our Brood War brothers, Koreans plays Terran Foreigners play Zerg and Protoss because only koreans can bring out Terran's potentials. Terran is a race
If you are very good you will do very well
If you suck you will fall into the pits of hell
This heaven or hell race is a challenge for a true man.
Unlike Zerg and Protoss where if you are mediocre you will do well Terran tests a man/woman's true courage. It's not a race for the faint hearted. For those who play Terran and are struggling know that just by playing Terran you already transcended your other racial counter parts in skill and dignity! stand proud fellow terrans! You are not alone.
Doesn't matter win or loss. The fact is that due to the extreme requirements for us to succeed will make us more successful than any other racial players around. So I ask you now my fellow Terran brothers.
This game. We either skill up and triumph or fall to hell. Well is that fun?
I answer wholeheartedly "YES" Oh Blasty, I was expecting something like this from you.
Heh it's like me to write something like that isn't it.
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http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all
Its pretty funny that as you would expect the Korea/Taiwan server is the absolute opposite in terms of representation.
Wonder if they have a thread complaining about zerg under representation over there... lol
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Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well.
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On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? 
I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time.
It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it.
I don't think the game should be balanced for casual ladder play, however I do think that protoss should be fundamentally changed and be made harder to play to make the game better overall. I enjoy terrans current difficulty, and it allows me to grow as a player more than playing the other races would at the moment.
The issues with TvP endgame aren't ladder specific. They are a reality in the absolute top level of play as well, and I'm happy that the GSL has started collecting lategame data in matchups, or "200/200 winrate" as they call it, i.e your winrates after you get maxed.
On March 13 2012 07:20 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:08 Dalavita wrote:
Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well. Proves that you don't have the slightest idea of BroodWar please consider to stop posting although this thread has become a dump anyway.
Educate me, oh mighty one.
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On March 13 2012 07:08 Dalavita wrote:
Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well.
Proves that you don't have the slightest idea of BroodWar please consider to stop posting although this thread has become a dump anyway.
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On March 13 2012 06:46 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
How do you figure Warp Gates in general are ruining late game? Let's say there is a 200/200 fight between terran and protoss and the battle isn't decisive either way. Both terran and protoss have enough barracks/gateways to re-max. When terran goes back to 200/200, his units are being built over the course of ~25 seconds in the barracks and then need to walk to the rally point to get all together to be combat effective. When protoss goes back to 200/200, his units are built in 5 seconds at a pylon, which is most likely somewhere on the map. This means that if there is a battle and protoss decisively wins, then protoss wins the game. If protoss comes out slightly ahead, he has a clear advantage. If terran and protoss trade evenly, then protoss is at an advantage. If terran comes out slightly ahead terran has no advantage. If terran comes out decisively ahead, he has an advantage, but in all likelihood the game will continue.
I understand your reasoning, but it's not accurate, because Gateway units aren't especially good. It is indispensable that Protoss have higher tech units, and these cannot be warped in. The best you can get are Templar, which even with Khaydarin Amulet are useless in sustained combat, and Archons, which require to Warp-Ins and still take time to merge anyway.
On March 13 2012 06:50 Dalavita wrote:
Khaydarin amulet made protoss virtually unpushable in the late game. Not only would the terran never be able to push into the opponents base to do damage after a close trade that ended in his favor because all the ghosts/medivacs/bio would either be mostly dead or dying. Add this to the fact that terran generally doesn't trade well against protoss in the lategame and you're just adding insult to injury. Khaydarin amulet also didn't take any skill or planning to pull off whatsoever. It was basically a storm on demand wherever you had a pylon nearby, and you could chain them up until the army was dead.
Of course it does. That's the entire point. High Templar are great defensive units, and you're complaining that they're providing great defence. However, they have no sustainable attack power, hence why it makes for better games: it kills the single determinant engagement that currently defines the matchup, allowing both Terran and Protoss the ability to continue playing after an engagement.
On March 13 2012 06:50 Dalavita wrote:You might say that SC vs San was one of your favorite series. All I saw was San literally being carried by warp in storms while massively being outplayed by SC.
What I saw was Sc on half the bases of San winning with the units that are supposedly countered by Templar. If you think that's unfair for the Terran, then, it is no wonder that you are complaining.
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Protoss can only remax instantly on gateway units or combinations, he cannot do so with robotics units like the colossus. You guys are complaining that its possible for Protoss to instantly remax, but I'm saying if Protoss is able to instantly remax, you allowed him to get a huge ressource count in the bank and yourself should have an equal amount of that.
Obviously you will never be able to remax as fast as a Protoss, yet I'm saying in the very lategame, Protoss usually cannot attack you if you are good in control. 24+ ghosts and everything fully upgraded the Protoss actually cannot engage or has to be insanely good and careful with the engagement. You should sacrifice workers in very lategame and replace them by mules, because as you said, USUALLY and with not a lot of ghosts you just won't trade very well against Protoss, so you need the bigger army supply.
Once you hit a good amount of ghosts and vikings its incredible hard as Protoss to push you cost efficiently, since ghosts instantly deal at least 1000 damage with emps + cloak and your scan / vikings will kill the observers and colossi. So.. its all about control , how and where to engage.
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On March 13 2012 07:32 Type|NarutO wrote:
Protoss can only remax instantly on gateway units or combinations, he cannot do so with robotics units like the colossus. You guys are complaining that its possible for Protoss to instantly remax, but I'm saying if Protoss is able to instantly remax, you allowed him to get a huge ressource count in the bank and yourself should have an equal amount of that.
Obviously you will never be able to remax as fast as a Protoss, yet I'm saying in the very lategame, Protoss usually cannot attack you if you are good in control. 24+ ghosts and everything fully upgraded the Protoss actually cannot engage or has to be insanely good and careful with the engagement. You should sacrifice workers in very lategame and replace them by mules, because as you said, USUALLY and with not a lot of ghosts you just won't trade very well against Protoss, so you need the bigger army supply.
Once you hit a good amount of ghosts and vikings its incredible hard as Protoss to push you cost efficiently, since ghosts instantly deal at least 1000 damage with emps + cloak and your scan / vikings will kill the observers and colossi. So.. its all about control , how and where to engage.
Fair point. My main weakness in tvp is my ghost play, the amount I get and the timing at the moment, so it could be what causes my issues.
However, what you're describing is the absolute endgame. What do you think of the matchup when you just hit the maxed period on 3-4 base?
Saccing SCVs and massing up ghosts is something you do once you're comfortable maxed out and feel safe enough that you won't be attacked. But what about the period before that when the protoss maxes out on 200/200 and you don't have the stupid ghost count?
Also, 24+ ghosts seems a bit insane. Isn't it enough to have 10-15 ghosts or something like that?
And when would you suggest you start saccing SCVs and building up your ghost count?
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ZvP man. I am in Platinum right now, and I beat diamond and even on occasion master level zergs/terrans, but I can't beat a gold Protoss to save my life :/
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On March 13 2012 07:08 Dalavita wrote:
Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well.
?
Terran: Boxer, Nada, [if you want to make a stretch to include people: forGG]
Zerg: July
To be honest, "BW legends" is an extremely small sample. Maybe you mean players from BW? If so, you include those like MVP (T), MKP (T), Puma (T) but you also include Nestea (Z), MC (irOn) (P), Hyun (Z), Fruitdealer (Cool) (Z), etc...
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There is no perfect guide to how to play Terran vs Protoss. I'm not very good at it actually, but thats just me dying to agression with 2 base allins or timings. I do quiet well against passive players. 24+ ghosts is not insane. Ghosts have higher DPS than marines (against light) and have nearly twice the life. They can EMP, cloak and snipe.
You have to keep in mind that usually the chargelots are very annoying to deal with as marauders don't deal as much damage and if you go marine-heavy you might just flat out die. Ghosts have nearly the same HP as marauders and deal 26 (-upgrades) damage to a zealot.
Those 3-4 base situations, Protoss usually isn't very agressive and your first maxed out army should already have at least 8 ghosts in it. Most Terrans are just building to much scvs to start with, as you don't really need as much. If you have 70, maximum 75 scvs you are perfectly fine and saturated, as you will usually never has 4-5 running bases and even so, you don't gain much more income or at least no use from it, as your inferior army will lose and you will not have cost-efficient trades.
Protoss really hates to engage into open field concaves, so whatever you do, let the Protoss come to you. If you want to attack, force HIM to engage YOU.. don't engage into him. I've had a game against a Protoss who did everything right, but didn't attack me when he could have killed me. After that I got a high ghost count 30+ and every single engagement he flat out died. He had over 12000 minerals and 6000 gas yet he couldn't win the engagements. Thats not me talking big or anything, thats just how the very lategame sometimes work.
Its not easy to play Terran vs Protoss, hell its fucking hard, but its for both sides. It feels like Protoss actually does less or has to do less, but actually Protoss needs tight builds and needs to be very good at defending against Terran. The options you have as Terran are diverse, its up to you to use them.
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TvP is the reason most terrans are switching to either P or Z. In all the time the game has been out, there has been some balance bullshit that seems impossible to beat, but people found a way around it and changed the meta game.
Where as TvP. Late game zealot, archon, brollosus is just a night mare. Props to any high level korean that makes a high level protoss look like a diamond player.
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On March 13 2012 08:03 Type|NarutO wrote:There is no perfect guide to how to play Terran vs Protoss. I'm not very good at it actually, but thats just me dying to agression with 2 base allins or timings. I do quiet well against passive players. 24+ ghosts is not insane. Ghosts have higher DPS than marines (against light) and have nearly twice the life. They can EMP, cloak and snipe. You have to keep in mind that usually the chargelots are very annoying to deal with as marauders don't deal as much damage and if you go marine-heavy you might just flat out die. Ghosts have nearly the same HP as marauders and deal 26 (-upgrades) damage to a zealot. Those 3-4 base situations, Protoss usually isn't very agressive and your first maxed out army should already have at least 8 ghosts in it. Most Terrans are just building to much scvs to start with, as you don't really need as much. If you have 70, maximum 75 scvs you are perfectly fine and saturated, as you will usually never has 4-5 running bases and even so, you don't gain much more income or at least no use from it, as your inferior army will lose and you will not have cost-efficient trades. Protoss really hates to engage into open field concaves, so whatever you do, let the Protoss come to you. If you want to attack, force HIM to engage YOU.. don't engage into him. I've had a game against a Protoss who did everything right, but didn't attack me when he could have killed me. After that I got a high ghost count 30+ and every single engagement he flat out died. He had over 12000 minerals and 6000 gas yet he couldn't win the engagements. Thats not me talking big or anything, thats just how the very lategame sometimes work. Its not easy to play Terran vs Protoss, hell its fucking hard, but its for both sides. It feels like Protoss actually does less or has to do less, but actually Protoss needs tight builds and needs to be very good at defending against Terran. The options you have as Terran are diverse, its up to you to use them.
In those late game situations, do you avoid producing marines and go completely ghost-marauder, or do you scatter a few marines in still?
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On March 13 2012 08:03 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:08 Dalavita wrote:
Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well. ? Terran: Boxer, Nada, [if you want to make a stretch to include people: forGG] Zerg: July To be honest, "BW legends" is an extremely small sample. Maybe you mean players from BW? If so, you include those like MVP (T), MKP (T), Puma (T) but you also include Nestea (Z), MC (irOn) (P), Hyun (Z), Fruitdealer (Cool) (Z), etc...
I don't mean BW legends playing SC2. I mean that people play terran in SC2 because most of the korean legends who played BW were terran. Iloveoov, flash, and them lot, not just the ones who play SC2.
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On March 13 2012 08:08 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:03 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 13 2012 07:08 Dalavita wrote:
Just about every korean BW legend of note has been terran, and korean ladder in general has higher level of play compared to EU/NA. Makes perfect sense, although I'm pretty sure both zergs and terrans on the korean ladder are whining about protoss as well. ? Terran: Boxer, Nada, [if you want to make a stretch to include people: forGG] Zerg: July To be honest, "BW legends" is an extremely small sample. Maybe you mean players from BW? If so, you include those like MVP (T), MKP (T), Puma (T) but you also include Nestea (Z), MC (irOn) (P), Hyun (Z), Fruitdealer (Cool) (Z), etc... I don't mean BW legends playing SC2. I mean that people play terran in SC2 because most of the korean legends who played BW were terran. Iloveoov, flash, and them lot, not just the ones who play SC2.
*facepalm*
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yeah p sure dalavita knows nothing about bw beyong reading the 'bonjwa' article on liquipedia lol.
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There's no point in arguing, the game is pretty balanced as it is. The arguments that everyone makes are complete bs because the situation usually is bad for their preferred race. The only way you can truly argue what is more OP is to have two players who are perfectly even and have them play seperate races. There is no way you can directly compare a race since each race is fundamentally completely different.
You can say though, at different leagues it may be easier to play a certain race than another but at a code S level things are pretty balanced, it's not like a certain race has been winning the tournament every single time.
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On March 13 2012 08:07 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:03 Type|NarutO wrote:There is no perfect guide to how to play Terran vs Protoss. I'm not very good at it actually, but thats just me dying to agression with 2 base allins or timings. I do quiet well against passive players. 24+ ghosts is not insane. Ghosts have higher DPS than marines (against light) and have nearly twice the life. They can EMP, cloak and snipe. You have to keep in mind that usually the chargelots are very annoying to deal with as marauders don't deal as much damage and if you go marine-heavy you might just flat out die. Ghosts have nearly the same HP as marauders and deal 26 (-upgrades) damage to a zealot. Those 3-4 base situations, Protoss usually isn't very agressive and your first maxed out army should already have at least 8 ghosts in it. Most Terrans are just building to much scvs to start with, as you don't really need as much. If you have 70, maximum 75 scvs you are perfectly fine and saturated, as you will usually never has 4-5 running bases and even so, you don't gain much more income or at least no use from it, as your inferior army will lose and you will not have cost-efficient trades. Protoss really hates to engage into open field concaves, so whatever you do, let the Protoss come to you. If you want to attack, force HIM to engage YOU.. don't engage into him. I've had a game against a Protoss who did everything right, but didn't attack me when he could have killed me. After that I got a high ghost count 30+ and every single engagement he flat out died. He had over 12000 minerals and 6000 gas yet he couldn't win the engagements. Thats not me talking big or anything, thats just how the very lategame sometimes work. Its not easy to play Terran vs Protoss, hell its fucking hard, but its for both sides. It feels like Protoss actually does less or has to do less, but actually Protoss needs tight builds and needs to be very good at defending against Terran. The options you have as Terran are diverse, its up to you to use them. In those late game situations, do you avoid producing marines and go completely ghost-marauder, or do you scatter a few marines in still?
I still get marines.
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EPT
