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So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that.
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Honestly, as a non-terran player, I'm having trouble coming up with any sympathy. Terran is dropping below 50% for the first time in SC2 history, and suddenly I can't play a ladder game vs Terran without being told I should apologize for my race. Both Z and P have had long periods where they were struggling. Terran hasn't even started to struggle, they're just not top dog right now. Heck, they're still the most represented race in the GSL, even after the new system allowing people to go straight to code B if they can't cut it.
So Terran players, I'm going to say to you what I've been told countless times in other threads:
Give it some time.
PS: I do have sympathy for the TvP matchup, not because it's imbalanced, but just because it's frustrating. It's frustrating for both sides. The outcome of a single battle completely determines who wins the game, it's just not a fun way to play. Sadly though, this is a game design issue, not a balance one. Nothing is going to be fixed until at least HotS, so we both have to wait. And possibly make angry forum posts.
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Hey fanatic-templar, it's not the players fault that the Collosus was born
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On March 13 2012 06:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that.
Khaydarin amulet was removed because it was retardedly strong in combination with warp gates.
The reason protoss endgame is so strong is because of warp gates.
The game is stale because of protoss, and protoss is stale because of warp gates.
Noticing a trend?
And yes, statistically balanced games still make for boring matchups if race x is on the clock to do crippling damage and race z is building up for that one attack because the rest becomes cruise control to victory.
Khaydarin amulet can come back if they get rid of or change warp gates. The mechanic is ruining every protoss matchup by itself.
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On March 13 2012 06:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that.
Are you stating that something is balanced because Terran has early pressure builds?
This logic is so flawed and I'll break it down for you
Races with early all ins/pressure builds:
Protoss
Zerg
Terran
Races with mid game all ins/pressure builds:
Protoss
Zerg
Terran
Races with late game viability:
Protoss
Zerg
This is at a non professional level of course but you can honestly say that a MU is fair because Terran has early pressure. Protoss does too, if a Terran tries to go early pressure and you decide to go mid game pressure, that Terran loses.
The problem with late Game TvZ/TvP is our T3 units suck. Hard.
Bcs are only good against units that can't actually hit them back.
Thors are just terrible in TvP (immortals, HT Feedback I'm looking at you)
No one race should HAVE to only rely on tier 1-2 units to fight a Tier 3 army. How is that right?
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how are we even talking about warp-in storms? may they RIP together with the 1 supply roach Oo
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Because it's fucking boring to lose to inferior macro players because of a different race. Protoss and terran are so similar in design that a terran player can swap to Protoss and perform better within a few weeks ._.
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On March 13 2012 06:06 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that. Khaydarin amulet was removed because it was retardedly strong in combination with warp gates. The reason protoss endgame is so strong is because of warp gates. The game is stale because of protoss, and protoss is stale because of warp gates. Noticing a trend? And yes, statistically balanced games still make for boring matchups if race x is on the clock to do crippling damage and race z is building up for that one attack because the rest becomes cruise control to victory. Khaydarin amulet can come back if they get rid of or change warp gates. The mechanic is ruining every protoss matchup by itself.
This is something common I've seen that really bothers me. Basically, what you're saying is that win % isn't a good way to look at balance, because even if it's around 50%, it could be that one race wins all the games early, and the other wins them all late. Cool, I can dig it, that makes sense to me.
Here's what doesn't make sense. In order to have 50% balance, for every game that Protoss wins late game, Terran has to win one early game. Otherwise the matchup won't be close to 50%. So, if Protoss is overpowered late game, then Terran has to be overpowered early game, or we'd see it reflected in the overall win %s for the matchup.
So yes, please go ahead and buff Terran late game. You just have to understand that without an equivalent early game nerf, the matchup is going to go away from 50% and swing strongly into Terran favored. I'm not calling for the removal of marauders or anything massive, I just want some aknowledgement from Terrans that maybe MULE oversaturation needs to be looked at. Because remember, just because it's not reflected in the %s doesn't mean that it's not a problem.
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On March 13 2012 06:03 joeschmo wrote:
Hey fanatic-templar, it's not the players fault that the Collosus was born
True. Very true. But it is the most terrible thing in StarCraft II. I hate it in PvT, I hate it in PvP, and I hate it in PvZ. It's responsible for the existence of otherwise useless units like the Zerg Corruptor. It's also the reason why Carriers are essentially useless: Carriers have the same vulnerabilities as Colossi, and Colossi are such a stupidly strong unit that every race needs to be able to counter it hard to prevent Protoss deathballs from just a-moving through everything. And since every race is capable of countering the Colossus so hard, they can also counter the Carrier hard.
For a time, for a gloriously and tragically short time, we had the hope for something else. San will always be my hero. Others may prefer MC or Huk or whoever, but I will always remember San vs. Sc as my favourite Protoss series. And then it was taken from us.
You cannot imagine how bitter I am. I have played and loved Protoss since 1998. It's no coincidence that it's in my username. I was never very good, but I could enjoy it. And now for months I've been pondering what to do, whether to race switch to Zerg, or to fall back to Brood War. I don't really want to have to learn a new race from scratch at this point in the game, but on the other hand, finding games on Brood War is an incredible hassle, and all my friends are now playing StarCraft 2.
So if my bile bothers you, please be forgiving and just think of it as the rantings of a bitter old Protoss. Because not only do I have to endure this self-loathing, I also have to deal with everyone else whining about my race, and therefore those who play that race, as well.
On March 13 2012 06:06 Dalavita wrote:
Khaydarin amulet was removed because it was retardedly strong in combination with warp gates.
The reason protoss endgame is so strong is because of warp gates.
The game is stale because of protoss, and protoss is stale because of warp gates.
Noticing a trend?
And yes, statistically balanced games still make for boring matchups if race x is on the clock to do crippling damage and race z is building up for that one attack because the rest becomes cruise control to victory.
Khaydarin amulet can come back if they get rid of or change warp gates. The mechanic is ruining every protoss matchup by itself.
I completely disagree. The combination of Warp Gates and Khaydarin Amulet is precisely what made Templar based PvT so great. It afforded Protoss incredible defensive capability, but only moderate offensive capability, which is exactly what Protoss is lacking, and what makes for good positional play (much like Siege Tanks do for Terrans).
How do you figure Warp Gates in general are ruining late game?
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What a lot of people is not saying but saying and I kind agree is that Blizzard seems more interested in GSL than people that actually play the game, is it an indication that there are so few people playing the game or it is selling THAT bad ?
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On March 13 2012 06:06 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
So if I understand this correctly, what people are saying is that Terran vs. Protoss is very difficult in the lategame, but it looks balanced because Terran have early all-ins that can easily kill the Protoss.
Well, that may be true, but then, that's not imbalance, is it? Early game comes before late game, so you certainly have the opportunity to end the game there without going into the harder late game. If you choose not to, that's not the fault of balance, you're simply not using the right strategy.
Now, it could be argued that the matchup should be balanced for lategame because that's where the more entertaining gameplay happens. Well, certainly! You think TvP sucks? It does. ZvP sucks too. As does PvP, incidentally. Every Protoss matchup is bad. And I used to think it was just because I was a terrible player, but even Protoss pro-games generally are less entertaining than TvZ, or TvT. Or, hell, even ZvZ.
You think that sucks for you because you hate to play vs. Protoss? I have to play Protoss every single game. And I blame you for it too. Because playing Protoss wasn't always so terrible. But at some point we had to choose between nerfing High Templar or nerfing Colossi because the combination of the two was simply overpowered. And because people - especially Terrans - cried about it most, Khaydarin Amulet was gone. And we kept the fucking Colossus, the most terrible unit in the game. And now you tell me that lategame vs Protoss sucks. Yes, yes it does. Thank you very much for that. Khaydarin amulet was removed because it was retardedly strong in combination with warp gates. The reason protoss endgame is so strong is because of warp gates. The game is stale because of protoss, and protoss is stale because of warp gates. Noticing a trend? And yes, statistically balanced games still make for boring matchups if race x is on the clock to do crippling damage and race z is building up for that one attack because the rest becomes cruise control to victory. Khaydarin amulet can come back if they get rid of or change warp gates. The mechanic is ruining every protoss matchup by itself.
Oh thanks God. This is the best post that i've read here so far. Warp Gate itself is a broken mechanic.
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Not bothered at all F-T, on the contrary I agree with you completely. You'd be hardpressed to find otherwise, imo.
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Diamond Terran checking in - I agree with your observation on this one. I play mostly TvZ (which is unfortunately my worst matchup).
I believe there are two reasons for this: 1. Zerg & Toss are more manageable at this micro-level, 2. I tend to think that Zerg players queue up more games than do Protoss or Terran. So even if quantity of players are even close, the zergs just play more quantity games that do those who play the other races (at our level).
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France12903 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 00:07 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 00:03 Sated wrote:On March 12 2012 23:56 aTnClouD wrote:On March 12 2012 23:52 Cheerio wrote:On March 12 2012 23:50 cydial wrote:On March 12 2012 23:41 Rob28 wrote:On March 12 2012 23:36 decaf wrote:
Terran is a lot of fun and definitely harder to play than zerg, but it's easier to get better with it - if that makes any sense. Terran harder to play than zerg? That's a good one. Micro and macro wise it is. I played random for a very long time. Zerg macro is hardest by miles. Select all hatcheries, press s and hold a key. The hardest indeed. Select all barracks, press a. Look how easy it is to make a statement as stupid as yours!  Yeah, because there is no such thing called supply block. Please refrain from posting before thinking. I was purposefully making a stupid statement. That's why I said, "Look how easy it is to make a statement as stupid as yours!". How dense are you? Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:39 Poopi wrote:On March 13 2012 03:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On March 11 2012 21:03 Zeetox wrote:My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/trw28.jpg) Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style). When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed. And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP. So if I understand correctly: 63.2% PvT winrate proves that Protoss is imba, 75% TvZ winrate does not prove that Terran is imba, It simply proves how good Terrans are. Though I admit that's the kind of reasoning I expect in these threads. That just means that his TvP makes him being matched against lesser good terrans and zergs and this is why he wins much more against Z/T. It's not called balance it's called "50% winrate for everyone until you are at the top of the MMR". If it's a trend for terrans lower than GM/high master to have such winrates in TvP (and not for only twenty games but for like 200+) that indicates that TvP is harder for terrans at this level, nothing less nothing more. Maybe T is overpowered compared to Z and this is leading to him being matched against stronger Protoss players. Prove me wrong. (Hint: You can't.)
I can it depends on how many terrans got the same stats as him ^^
Personally I have shitty stats against Z/T and good stats against P, doesn't tell anything about balance since I'm almost the only one with such stats
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On March 13 2012 06:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 00:07 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 00:03 Sated wrote:On March 12 2012 23:56 aTnClouD wrote:On March 12 2012 23:52 Cheerio wrote:On March 12 2012 23:50 cydial wrote:On March 12 2012 23:41 Rob28 wrote:On March 12 2012 23:36 decaf wrote:
Terran is a lot of fun and definitely harder to play than zerg, but it's easier to get better with it - if that makes any sense. Terran harder to play than zerg? That's a good one. Micro and macro wise it is. I played random for a very long time. Zerg macro is hardest by miles. Select all hatcheries, press s and hold a key. The hardest indeed. Select all barracks, press a. Look how easy it is to make a statement as stupid as yours! Yeah, because there is no such thing called supply block. Please refrain from posting before thinking. I was purposefully making a stupid statement. That's why I said, "Look how easy it is to make a statement as stupid as yours!". How dense are you? Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:39 Poopi wrote:On March 13 2012 03:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On March 11 2012 21:03 Zeetox wrote:My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T): Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style). When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed. And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP. So if I understand correctly: 63.2% PvT winrate proves that Protoss is imba, 75% TvZ winrate does not prove that Terran is imba, It simply proves how good Terrans are. Though I admit that's the kind of reasoning I expect in these threads. That just means that his TvP makes him being matched against lesser good terrans and zergs and this is why he wins much more against Z/T. It's not called balance it's called "50% winrate for everyone until you are at the top of the MMR". If it's a trend for terrans lower than GM/high master to have such winrates in TvP (and not for only twenty games but for like 200+) that indicates that TvP is harder for terrans at this level, nothing less nothing more. Maybe T is overpowered compared to Z and this is leading to him being matched against stronger Protoss players. Prove me wrong. (Hint: You can't.)
If Terran was overpowered in the TvZ matchup you would not see Terran as the race Zerg considers the easiest to beat.
Also if your TvT AND TvZ winrates are both extremely high it would make sense that there could possibly be a balance shift no?
One could argue that everyone with say a 70% TvT 70% TvZ and a 30% TvP simply do not understand the matchup. I do not agree with that that but there really is no way to prove otherwise aside from a poll that could gather every single players vote and not just the vocal minority.
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Fellow Dominion Soldier, It is a Dark Age for the Terran race, but we cannot falter.
Like our Brood War brothers, Koreans plays Terran Foreigners play Zerg and Protoss because only koreans can bring out Terran's potentials. Terran is a race
If you are very good you will do very well
If you suck you will fall into the pits of hell
This heaven or hell race is a challenge for a true man.
Unlike Zerg and Protoss where if you are mediocre you will do well Terran tests a man/woman's true courage. It's not a race for the faint hearted. For those who play Terran and are struggling know that just by playing Terran you already transcended your other racial counter parts in skill and dignity! stand proud fellow terrans! You are not alone.
Doesn't matter win or loss. The fact is that due to the extreme requirements for us to succeed will make us more successful than any other racial players around. So I ask you now my fellow Terran brothers.
This game. We either skill up and triumph or fall to hell. Well is that fun?
I answer wholeheartedly "YES"
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On March 13 2012 06:43 Blasterion wrote:
Fellow Dominion Soldier, It is a Dark Age for the Terran race, but we cannot falter.
Like our Brood War brothers, Koreans plays Terran Foreigners play Zerg and Protoss because only koreans can bring out Terran's potentials. Terran is a race
If you are very good you will do very well
If you suck you will fall into the pits of hell
This heaven or hell race is a challenge for a true man.
Unlike Zerg and Protoss where if you are mediocre you will do well Terran tests a man/woman's true courage. It's not a race for the faint hearted. For those who play Terran and are struggling know that just by playing Terran you already transcended your other racial counter parts in skill and dignity! stand proud fellow terrans! You are not alone.
Doesn't matter win or loss. The fact is that due to the extreme requirements for us to succeed will make us more successful than any other racial players around. So I ask you now my fellow Terran brothers.
This game. We either skill up and triumph or fall to hell. Well is that fun?
I answer wholeheartedly "YES"
Oh Blasty, I was expecting something like this from you.
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On March 13 2012 06:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
How do you figure Warp Gates in general are ruining late game?
Let's say there is a 200/200 fight between terran and protoss and the battle isn't decisive either way. Both terran and protoss have enough barracks/gateways to re-max.
When terran goes back to 200/200, his units are being built over the course of ~25 seconds in the barracks and then need to walk to the rally point to get all together to be combat effective. When protoss goes back to 200/200, his units are built in 5 seconds at a pylon, which is most likely somewhere on the map.
This means that if there is a battle and protoss decisively wins, then protoss wins the game. If protoss comes out slightly ahead, he has a clear advantage. If terran and protoss trade evenly, then protoss is at an advantage. If terran comes out slightly ahead terran has no advantage. If terran comes out decisively ahead, he has an advantage, but in all likelihood the game will continue.
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EPT
