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Terran must engage Protoss correctly in every aspect. Positioning & micro are key factors. Terran must always control vikings on a seperate control group & attack Colloxen, dodge storms. Terran must control Ghost EMP & effectively shut down all High Templar first then EMP the Protoss army. Terran must keep his MMM ball kiting & controlled as to avoid a terrain disadvantage. In the lower leagues (GM & down) this is proven to be difficult against even an A-moving Protoss army. When the Protoss micros it becomes substantially more difficult. In the higher leagues (Professional gamers) a Protoss player must micro his army just as well as the Terran player, if a professional gamer doesn't micro well it could be game ending. I conclude that TvP is more difficult for Terran in the lower leagues on this basis alone.
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On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:
I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else.
Uhm. You do realize this is the exact reason people are complaining about protoss being to easy?
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On March 11 2012 21:03 Zeetox wrote:My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/trw28.jpg) Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style). When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed. And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP.
So if I understand correctly:
63.2% PvT winrate proves that Protoss is imba,
75% TvZ winrate does not prove that Terran is imba, It simply proves how good Terrans are.
Though I admit that's the kind of reasoning I expect in these threads.
EDIT: Actually, that reminds me of a funny experience. The hardest rage I've experienced in a ladder game was when I got matched up against an ex-Protoss Terran player, who claimed to have switched to Terran because Protoss was unwinnable. His constant attacks on my race made me defensive, and I tried defending Protoss. This lead to the inverse balance thread scenario, with a Terran player claiming that Terran was OP and Protoss couldn't win, and a Protoss player who argued that Protoss could very well beat a Terran without superhuman efforts.
Then he completely massacred me.
Still a funny experience.
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On March 13 2012 03:04 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:39 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:On March 12 2012 17:39 paradisefar wrote:
Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions... I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc. What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues? I think you are confused and believe I care about the "adverse" affects on the lower leagues. I do not want this game balanced around them. I do not want a game that is balanced for someone who thinks "It is to hard to be at good as the pro's in Korea. I wish the game were easier." I do not want people who desire that to be playing or having any influance on balance or the design of the game. I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. The current trend is every Terran player is struggling globally and that includes the likes of pro terrans as evidenced by their lack of success in tournaments. This is what I mean by "lower leagues." I myself am not there yet and it would require a tremendous amount of effort to get there which I absolutely don't mind. You must think I want the opposite. These are players that DO NOT put minimal effort and time to the game but are affected the most when Blizzard only balances for the highest tier. I have never seen any evidence to support that beyond a bunch of terrans who post in threads such as this one about how hard the late game is vs both races. As I stated in previous posts, no replays are posted in these threads, no proof provided. Just a bunch of post complaining about how hard it is to win at their current level. "Why are there no replays?", you may ask. Because then people could point out what they did wrong or what they need to fix, and that would be productive. There appear to be no problems in Korea, as there are still more terrans than protoss or zerg in the GSL. There are currently only 4 Zerg is GSL. But you don't see a thread about how broken zerg is or using their lack luster numbers in the GSL, claiming that only DongRaeGu and NesTea can make them work. And people who claim they have gotten to masters and now can't beat protoss/zerg do not impress me either. Your rank has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. If you need proof of this, just look up Bad Habit's thread on how to get to GM off of 6 pooling. He has done it for several seasons. Is someone going to tell me that he is an amazing, robust player? No, they are not, becaue is isn't. People can get very high in the ladder and not have a robust understanding of the game. In short, if the proffesional players are doing well, you should download their replays and spend some time reviewing them. I wonder if you'll eventually understand that this thread has nothing to do with GSL level balance. Please, enlighten us how the low number of zergs in the GSL is related to Terrans numbers in the ladder. Oh and ofc I'll just download MKP's replays and watch them. Then suddenly I'll have 350 apm and micro like a madman.
I understand the point of this thread, it is poorly masked and provides little proof of its claims. Please point to there there is any evidence that there are fewer terrans on the ladder. From my reading over the last two months, it is a myth created terrans who want to whine about balance. If you want to get better suddenly and not work at it, I don't think anything can really help you.
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On March 13 2012 03:23 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:
I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. Uhm. You do realize this is the exact reason people are complaining about protoss being to easy?
Yes, and I am arguing that you might just not be that good at that match up. Claiming your opponent is terrible and you lost due to imbalance or a race being to "easy" is just bad and you should switch games if that is your main problem.
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France12906 Posts
On March 13 2012 03:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:03 Zeetox wrote:My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T): Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style). When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed. And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP. So if I understand correctly: 63.2% PvT winrate proves that Protoss is imba, 75% TvZ winrate does not prove that Terran is imba, It simply proves how good Terrans are. Though I admit that's the kind of reasoning I expect in these threads.
That just means that his TvP makes him being matched against lesser good terrans and zergs and this is why he wins much more against Z/T. It's not called balance it's called "50% winrate for everyone until you are at the top of the MMR".
If it's a trend for terrans lower than GM/high master to have such winrates in TvP (and not for only twenty games but for like 200+) that indicates that TvP is harder for terrans at this level, nothing less nothing more.
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once you get to rank 1 masters tvp becomes un-winnable imo... just cant macro well enough and micro as perfect as needed in the late game :-(
I have 3 TVT in around 30 ladder games this week.
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On March 13 2012 03:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:04 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:39 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:On March 12 2012 17:39 paradisefar wrote:
Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions... I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc. What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues? I think you are confused and believe I care about the "adverse" affects on the lower leagues. I do not want this game balanced around them. I do not want a game that is balanced for someone who thinks "It is to hard to be at good as the pro's in Korea. I wish the game were easier." I do not want people who desire that to be playing or having any influance on balance or the design of the game. I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. The current trend is every Terran player is struggling globally and that includes the likes of pro terrans as evidenced by their lack of success in tournaments. This is what I mean by "lower leagues." I myself am not there yet and it would require a tremendous amount of effort to get there which I absolutely don't mind. You must think I want the opposite. These are players that DO NOT put minimal effort and time to the game but are affected the most when Blizzard only balances for the highest tier. I have never seen any evidence to support that beyond a bunch of terrans who post in threads such as this one about how hard the late game is vs both races. As I stated in previous posts, no replays are posted in these threads, no proof provided. Just a bunch of post complaining about how hard it is to win at their current level. "Why are there no replays?", you may ask. Because then people could point out what they did wrong or what they need to fix, and that would be productive. There appear to be no problems in Korea, as there are still more terrans than protoss or zerg in the GSL. There are currently only 4 Zerg is GSL. But you don't see a thread about how broken zerg is or using their lack luster numbers in the GSL, claiming that only DongRaeGu and NesTea can make them work. And people who claim they have gotten to masters and now can't beat protoss/zerg do not impress me either. Your rank has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. If you need proof of this, just look up Bad Habit's thread on how to get to GM off of 6 pooling. He has done it for several seasons. Is someone going to tell me that he is an amazing, robust player? No, they are not, becaue is isn't. People can get very high in the ladder and not have a robust understanding of the game. In short, if the proffesional players are doing well, you should download their replays and spend some time reviewing them. I wonder if you'll eventually understand that this thread has nothing to do with GSL level balance. Please, enlighten us how the low number of zergs in the GSL is related to Terrans numbers in the ladder. Oh and ofc I'll just download MKP's replays and watch them. Then suddenly I'll have 350 apm and micro like a madman. I understand the point of this thread, it is poorly masked and provides little proof of its claims. Please point to there there is any evidence that there are fewer terrans on the ladder. From my reading over the last two months, it is a myth created terrans who want to whine about balance. If you want to get better suddenly and not work at it, I don't think anything can really help you.
At this point I gotta assume you're trolling. Have you read the OP? Look at sc2ranks.com. It's not a myth, there are less Terran players in every league, except maybe bronze. If you can't even understand this, I'm done here.
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On March 13 2012 03:14 Blasterion wrote:
Like Brood War, Koreans plays Terran Foreigners play Zerg and Protoss because only koreans can bring out Terran's potentials. Terran is
If you are very good you will do very well
If you suck you will fall into the pits of hell
This heaven or hell race is a challenge for a true man.
Unlike Zerg and Protoss where if you are mediocre you will do well Terran tests a man/woman's true courage. It's not a race for the faint hearted. For those who play Terran and are struggling know that just by playing Terran you already transcended your other racial counter parts in skill and dignity! stand proud fellow terrans! You are not alone.
We will win through, no matter the cost.
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On March 13 2012 03:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:04 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:39 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:On March 12 2012 17:39 paradisefar wrote:
Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions... I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc. What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues? I think you are confused and believe I care about the "adverse" affects on the lower leagues. I do not want this game balanced around them. I do not want a game that is balanced for someone who thinks "It is to hard to be at good as the pro's in Korea. I wish the game were easier." I do not want people who desire that to be playing or having any influance on balance or the design of the game. I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. The current trend is every Terran player is struggling globally and that includes the likes of pro terrans as evidenced by their lack of success in tournaments. This is what I mean by "lower leagues." I myself am not there yet and it would require a tremendous amount of effort to get there which I absolutely don't mind. You must think I want the opposite. These are players that DO NOT put minimal effort and time to the game but are affected the most when Blizzard only balances for the highest tier. I have never seen any evidence to support that beyond a bunch of terrans who post in threads such as this one about how hard the late game is vs both races. As I stated in previous posts, no replays are posted in these threads, no proof provided. Just a bunch of post complaining about how hard it is to win at their current level. "Why are there no replays?", you may ask. Because then people could point out what they did wrong or what they need to fix, and that would be productive. There appear to be no problems in Korea, as there are still more terrans than protoss or zerg in the GSL. There are currently only 4 Zerg is GSL. But you don't see a thread about how broken zerg is or using their lack luster numbers in the GSL, claiming that only DongRaeGu and NesTea can make them work. And people who claim they have gotten to masters and now can't beat protoss/zerg do not impress me either. Your rank has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. If you need proof of this, just look up Bad Habit's thread on how to get to GM off of 6 pooling. He has done it for several seasons. Is someone going to tell me that he is an amazing, robust player? No, they are not, becaue is isn't. People can get very high in the ladder and not have a robust understanding of the game. In short, if the proffesional players are doing well, you should download their replays and spend some time reviewing them. I wonder if you'll eventually understand that this thread has nothing to do with GSL level balance. Please, enlighten us how the low number of zergs in the GSL is related to Terrans numbers in the ladder. Oh and ofc I'll just download MKP's replays and watch them. Then suddenly I'll have 350 apm and micro like a madman. I understand the point of this thread, it is poorly masked and provides little proof of its claims. Please point to there there is any evidence that there are fewer terrans on the ladder. From my reading over the last two months, it is a myth created terrans who want to whine about balance. If you want to get better suddenly and not work at it, I don't think anything can really help you.
click link in OP ..?
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terran macro is hard
terran micro is hard
so i switched to zerg to learn how to hold off terran all ins that involve no macro or hard micro
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The reason Terran is OP in korea is because they have amazing internet. The reason everyone sucks with Terran outside of korea is because everyone has shitty internet. Go in offline mode and tell me you're bio control doesn't look like a gsl champ. Then go online and rofl as you miserably fail your splits and you lose all your shit to a-moved banelings or chargelots.
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Because the people that play terrans are bad and now that the race is more balanced they can't keep up. The thing with terran is if youre good, the things you can do with terran is amazing (multiprong drops, nukes, splittings), but if youre bad, you look like a chimpanzee trying to build a spaceship. I am still running into A LOT of terran on KR server. It is better to just stick to one race and get better at it instead of switching everytime TL decides that a race is UP.
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On March 13 2012 03:42 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:31 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 03:04 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:39 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:On March 12 2012 17:39 paradisefar wrote:
Balancing for several level of play is hard and risky, but doing so only for the pro level is not as much, especially when some races have fundamental design flaws that's to be addressed supposedly over the coming expansions... I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc. What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues? I think you are confused and believe I care about the "adverse" affects on the lower leagues. I do not want this game balanced around them. I do not want a game that is balanced for someone who thinks "It is to hard to be at good as the pro's in Korea. I wish the game were easier." I do not want people who desire that to be playing or having any influance on balance or the design of the game. I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. The current trend is every Terran player is struggling globally and that includes the likes of pro terrans as evidenced by their lack of success in tournaments. This is what I mean by "lower leagues." I myself am not there yet and it would require a tremendous amount of effort to get there which I absolutely don't mind. You must think I want the opposite. These are players that DO NOT put minimal effort and time to the game but are affected the most when Blizzard only balances for the highest tier. I have never seen any evidence to support that beyond a bunch of terrans who post in threads such as this one about how hard the late game is vs both races. As I stated in previous posts, no replays are posted in these threads, no proof provided. Just a bunch of post complaining about how hard it is to win at their current level. "Why are there no replays?", you may ask. Because then people could point out what they did wrong or what they need to fix, and that would be productive. There appear to be no problems in Korea, as there are still more terrans than protoss or zerg in the GSL. There are currently only 4 Zerg is GSL. But you don't see a thread about how broken zerg is or using their lack luster numbers in the GSL, claiming that only DongRaeGu and NesTea can make them work. And people who claim they have gotten to masters and now can't beat protoss/zerg do not impress me either. Your rank has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. If you need proof of this, just look up Bad Habit's thread on how to get to GM off of 6 pooling. He has done it for several seasons. Is someone going to tell me that he is an amazing, robust player? No, they are not, becaue is isn't. People can get very high in the ladder and not have a robust understanding of the game. In short, if the proffesional players are doing well, you should download their replays and spend some time reviewing them. I wonder if you'll eventually understand that this thread has nothing to do with GSL level balance. Please, enlighten us how the low number of zergs in the GSL is related to Terrans numbers in the ladder. Oh and ofc I'll just download MKP's replays and watch them. Then suddenly I'll have 350 apm and micro like a madman. I understand the point of this thread, it is poorly masked and provides little proof of its claims. Please point to there there is any evidence that there are fewer terrans on the ladder. From my reading over the last two months, it is a myth created terrans who want to whine about balance. If you want to get better suddenly and not work at it, I don't think anything can really help you. At this point I gotta assume you're trolling. Have you read the OP? Look at sc2ranks.com. It's not a myth, there are less Terran players in every league, except maybe bronze. If you can't even understand this, I'm done here.
All I see is that there are fewer terran players per league. The largest gap is 8% in diamond. The rest are around 2-3%. There are also fewer randoms the higher the league goes. None of these shows terrans leaving in the masses, only that there are few of them in most leagues.
But one race has to have the fewest players. They can't all be 30%-30%-30% and 10% random.
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I feel like Dustin Browder is sitting in his massive golden chair grinning and saying "Muhahahahaha, look at these idiots squabbling over MY game! To bad they're all fooooolsssss!"
then David Kim is like "Yeah, it's like they didn't notice at release we made Terran the best race so I could get GM and then WHENEVER we have a discussion on Balance, I can simply say my rank and my word is law, but now because we decided to actually balance the game evenly suchthat tier 1 units dont > tier 2/3 units EVERYONE IS FLIPPING SHIT, oh yeah also my AP...CPM, is 110, fuck yeah, just like everyone else! We boss"
Then Dustin replys "We da boss"
Oh on a side note, everyone saying P/Z are to easy... Reach the exact same rank as one of those races compared to T and I'll be surprised, improve drastically (go from diamond to high masters) and you might have aclaim to make. Doubt it'll happen.
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I'm not entirely certain Terran are leaving by the masses, but we could just be playing less.
Are there any statistics that show the amount of games played by race?
Its not so much leaving is more of a cautiously not losing much until some shiny beam of hope appears again.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:08 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I feel like Dustin Browder is sitting in his massive golden chair grinning and saying "Muhahahahaha, look at these idiots squabbling over MY game! To bad they're all fooooolsssss!"
then David Kim is like "Yeah, it's like they didn't notice at release we made Terran the best race so I could get GM and then WHENEVER we have a discussion on Balance, I can simply say my rank and my word is law,
David Kim was/is GM being Random, not Terran.
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On March 13 2012 03:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 21:03 Zeetox wrote:My stats for this season (I'm high diamond T): Also, I think it's worth to say, that out of those 7 wins vsP, 4 are 1/1/1 all-ins with pulling all the scvs, and 3 wins are pure mech, containing opponent on 2 bases and waiting for him to all-in (quite a TvT style). When I was trying to play "standard" I was getting a-moved by deathballs with like 80-90 APM, while I had ~180 APM, and was dropping as much as I could, denying bases etc. during the whole game. When it was coming to the final engagements, the score was pretty even, but then P was just warping in like 20 Zealots in the middle of the battle and I was screwed. And for those who say, that I should micro better - 75% win ratio in TvZ didn't came from nowhere, it requires as much if not more micro than other matchups. Therefore, I consider TvP as a retarded and imbalanced matchup and a reason for lack of Terran players on the higher levels. Thanks for attention and to all the Terrans out there - pray for HotS to come out ASAP. So if I understand correctly: 63.2% PvT winrate proves that Protoss is imba, 75% TvZ winrate does not prove that Terran is imba, It simply proves how good Terrans are. Though I admit that's the kind of reasoning I expect in these threads. EDIT: Actually, that reminds me of a funny experience. The hardest rage I've experienced in a ladder game was when I got matched up against an ex-Protoss Terran player, who claimed to have switched to Terran because Protoss was unwinnable. His constant attacks on my race made me defensive, and I tried defending Protoss. This lead to the inverse balance thread scenario, with a Terran player claiming that Terran was OP and Protoss couldn't win, and a Protoss player who argued that Protoss could very well beat a Terran without superhuman efforts. Then he completely massacred me. Still a funny experience.
I'm going to have a thought process here, stick with me.
Assume TvP is imbalanced for the protosses side.
You lose to protosses because the race is to hard to play against, so you face off against zergs who don't struggle with the same level protosses, because that matchup isn't as borked up. The end result is you playing against zergs who are below your actual skill level because tvz is balanced, thus 70% winrate.
I could see tvz being imbalanced towards the terrans side, with tvp being imbalanced towards protoss side, but if that made sense zergs would be complaining about terrans. However most complaints right now are pvz from both protosses and zergs.
I can see some arguments for and against this, but I'll throw the theory out there to see what other people think.
On March 13 2012 04:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 03:42 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 03:31 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 03:04 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:39 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 02:14 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 02:04 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2012 01:30 LRObot wrote:
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I don't see what's so hard about balancing around all leagues. Here's how you do it. Create seperate patches. One for the GSL tier/KR-gm and one for the rest of us (masters - gm). There. If and when the various strats trickle down to the lower leagues and it too becomes obviously imbalanced, they patch it out as well. I say "out" because that's what Blizz basically does. Reapers, thors v P, tanks v P lategame, ghosts v Z, etc.
What would be the negative consequences that come of this? You can't be serious? You want a seperate patch for lower level players? So you want a different, easier game to play because you don't want to spend the time getting better? What is going on, is this really TL? If you want a game where they don't balance for the highest level of play, then don't play SC2. Go play another game that requires less time and effort. No one on TL wants a game that is balanced for people who want to put in minimal effort and don't want to try to be as good as the professionals. And you can't think that balancing for only the highest tier can't have adverse affects on the lower tiered players who play this game unlike progamers that devote their entire time to playing this game. I already said that blizz was going to balance for the highest level of play but they would also consider everyone below as well. I'll ask you this. Is this game balanced around the lower leagues? I think you are confused and believe I care about the "adverse" affects on the lower leagues. I do not want this game balanced around them. I do not want a game that is balanced for someone who thinks "It is to hard to be at good as the pro's in Korea. I wish the game were easier." I do not want people who desire that to be playing or having any influance on balance or the design of the game. I don't have a lot of time to play SC2. But when I do, I want to play a game that rewards people who work hard. If someoone has more time than me and practices, they should beat me. Otherwise it cheapens any wins I get and the time I spend practicing. People who just want to win and be able to put in a few hours a week should play something else. The current trend is every Terran player is struggling globally and that includes the likes of pro terrans as evidenced by their lack of success in tournaments. This is what I mean by "lower leagues." I myself am not there yet and it would require a tremendous amount of effort to get there which I absolutely don't mind. You must think I want the opposite. These are players that DO NOT put minimal effort and time to the game but are affected the most when Blizzard only balances for the highest tier. I have never seen any evidence to support that beyond a bunch of terrans who post in threads such as this one about how hard the late game is vs both races. As I stated in previous posts, no replays are posted in these threads, no proof provided. Just a bunch of post complaining about how hard it is to win at their current level. "Why are there no replays?", you may ask. Because then people could point out what they did wrong or what they need to fix, and that would be productive. There appear to be no problems in Korea, as there are still more terrans than protoss or zerg in the GSL. There are currently only 4 Zerg is GSL. But you don't see a thread about how broken zerg is or using their lack luster numbers in the GSL, claiming that only DongRaeGu and NesTea can make them work. And people who claim they have gotten to masters and now can't beat protoss/zerg do not impress me either. Your rank has nothing to do with how skilled a player you are. If you need proof of this, just look up Bad Habit's thread on how to get to GM off of 6 pooling. He has done it for several seasons. Is someone going to tell me that he is an amazing, robust player? No, they are not, becaue is isn't. People can get very high in the ladder and not have a robust understanding of the game. In short, if the proffesional players are doing well, you should download their replays and spend some time reviewing them. I wonder if you'll eventually understand that this thread has nothing to do with GSL level balance. Please, enlighten us how the low number of zergs in the GSL is related to Terrans numbers in the ladder. Oh and ofc I'll just download MKP's replays and watch them. Then suddenly I'll have 350 apm and micro like a madman. I understand the point of this thread, it is poorly masked and provides little proof of its claims. Please point to there there is any evidence that there are fewer terrans on the ladder. From my reading over the last two months, it is a myth created terrans who want to whine about balance. If you want to get better suddenly and not work at it, I don't think anything can really help you. At this point I gotta assume you're trolling. Have you read the OP? Look at sc2ranks.com. It's not a myth, there are less Terran players in every league, except maybe bronze. If you can't even understand this, I'm done here. All I see is that there are fewer terran players per league. The largest gap is 8% in diamond. The rest are around 2-3%. There are also fewer randoms the higher the league goes. None of these shows terrans leaving in the masses, only that there are few of them in most leagues. But one race has to have the fewest players. They can't all be 30%-30%-30% and 10% random.
Incorrect. Large sample sizes need to average out whereas it's understandable that smaller sample sizes have weird statistics.
For instance, the ladder is big enough for there to need to be a reason why there is a significant race difference, whereas examples like code S it's all right for there to be more players of a specific race, since individual players matter more.
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On March 13 2012 04:29 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 04:08 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I feel like Dustin Browder is sitting in his massive golden chair grinning and saying "Muhahahahaha, look at these idiots squabbling over MY game! To bad they're all fooooolsssss!"
then David Kim is like "Yeah, it's like they didn't notice at release we made Terran the best race so I could get GM and then WHENEVER we have a discussion on Balance, I can simply say my rank and my word is law, David Kim was/is GM being Random, not Terran.
I was mainly joking in case you didn't catch that.
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On March 13 2012 03:16 joeschmo wrote:
Terran must engage Protoss correctly in every aspect. Positioning & micro are key factors. Terran must always control vikings on a seperate control group & attack Colloxen, dodge storms. Terran must control Ghost EMP & effectively shut down all High Templar first then EMP the Protoss army. Terran must keep his MMM ball kiting & controlled as to avoid a terrain disadvantage. In the lower leagues (GM & down) this is proven to be difficult against even an A-moving Protoss army. When the Protoss micros it becomes substantially more difficult. In the higher leagues (Professional gamers) a Protoss player must micro his army just as well as the Terran player, if a professional gamer doesn't micro well it could be game ending. I conclude that TvP is more difficult for Terran in the lower leagues on this basis alone.
This is a bit of an exaggeration, but for the most part it's correct. Protoss micro helps a lot, but terran micro is literally do or die most of the time.
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EPT
