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On March 13 2012 08:17 BicBootyBoi wrote:
There's no point in arguing, the game is pretty balanced as it is...it's not like a certain race has been winning the tournament every single time.
Just wanted to touch on this point you made. It's true, the balance among racial wins for tournaments has been pretty even but you have to admit blizzard has been helping with that. There have been patches coming out within 2 months of each other, there might have been a gap in between patches of like 6 months at maximum but we've seen frequent patches in SC2 and it's certainly changed the game every time.
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On March 13 2012 10:05 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:17 BicBootyBoi wrote:
There's no point in arguing, the game is pretty balanced as it is...it's not like a certain race has been winning the tournament every single time. Just wanted to touch on this point you made. It's true, the balance among racial wins for tournaments has been pretty even but you have to admit blizzard has been helping with that. There have been patches coming out within 2 months of each other, there might have been a gap in between patches of like 6 months at maximum but we've seen frequent patches in SC2 and it's certainly changed the game every time.
i think that, while probably slower, if blizzard left the game alone it would still balance itself.
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On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys?  I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it
I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side?
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On March 13 2012 10:50 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side?
By themselves they don't mean much. It's simply yet another point of data that you take into account to formulate an opinion.
And about your last question. If protoss thinks zerg is hardest, and zerg thinks protoss is hardest, and both of them think terran are easy on average, that'd indicate that pvz averages out and terran is the weaker of them all. If your opinion isn't in the poll, you simply don't vote.
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United Kingdom2991 Posts
On March 13 2012 10:57 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 10:50 fraktoasters wrote:On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side? By themselves they don't mean much. It's simply yet another point of data that you take into account to formulate an opinion. And about your last question. If protoss thinks zerg is hardest, and zerg thinks protoss is hardest, and both of them think terran are easy on average, that'd indicate that pvz averages out and terran is the weaker of them all. If your opinion isn't in the poll, you simply don't vote.
You mean the poll where TvT is the weakest matchup for only 13% of terrans? Do you realise that that is impossible on the ladder and therefore the majority of people are not actually using their own statistics to backup their poll choice?
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On March 13 2012 11:35 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 10:57 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 10:50 fraktoasters wrote:On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side? By themselves they don't mean much. It's simply yet another point of data that you take into account to formulate an opinion. And about your last question. If protoss thinks zerg is hardest, and zerg thinks protoss is hardest, and both of them think terran are easy on average, that'd indicate that pvz averages out and terran is the weaker of them all. If your opinion isn't in the poll, you simply don't vote. You mean the poll where TvT is the weakest matchup for only 13% of terrans? Do you realise that that is impossible on the ladder and therefore the majority of people are not actually using their own statistics to backup their poll choice?
People don't choose the MU they are best or worst at, they choose the MU in which they feel least comfortable.
I would say PvP is my most hated MU.
For example if I look at my stats I might win more PvP than PvZ but PvP 'feels' bad to me due to the high level of tension very early in the match about the high likely hood of a BO loss. "Oh, he rushed DT and my obs is helpfully showing me his dark shrine as 4 DTs kill my robo. Awesome." where PvZ I don't have the same fears. Even though I lose more I understand the MU better so I don't feel as bad.
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On March 13 2012 11:35 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 10:57 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 10:50 fraktoasters wrote:On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side? By themselves they don't mean much. It's simply yet another point of data that you take into account to formulate an opinion. And about your last question. If protoss thinks zerg is hardest, and zerg thinks protoss is hardest, and both of them think terran are easy on average, that'd indicate that pvz averages out and terran is the weaker of them all. If your opinion isn't in the poll, you simply don't vote. You mean the poll where TvT is the weakest matchup for only 13% of terrans? Do you realise that that is impossible on the ladder and therefore the majority of people are not actually using their own statistics to backup their poll choice?
Why is it impossible? For instance if most people just go 50/50 in tvt they have no reason to feel like it's their worst matchup.
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On March 13 2012 11:35 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 10:57 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 10:50 fraktoasters wrote:On March 13 2012 07:20 Dalavita wrote:On March 13 2012 07:15 Sated wrote:Completely subjective and player dependent. I have trouble against T, therefore T overpowered herpaderp. You can't prove this point with a single player's statistics. Or even a few player's statistics. You need something like GSL to show that you've got problems before you have problems. Unless you think balance should be done for casual trash like us guys? I would consider the polls in the OP as significant enough number-wise to give a hint towards the general state of the game, added to various comments from pro players over an extended period of time. It's nothing like taking one persons data and trying to make something out of it I'm fascinated to know what you're trying to conclude from the polls in the OP. You do realize there isn't an option for "game is fine all my match ups are even". It's just asking what you feel like is your weakest. You really think that a perfectly balanced game would have everyone complaining perfectly evenly across all races? For crying out loud, does the polls mean PvZ is imbalanced for both P and Z side? By themselves they don't mean much. It's simply yet another point of data that you take into account to formulate an opinion. And about your last question. If protoss thinks zerg is hardest, and zerg thinks protoss is hardest, and both of them think terran are easy on average, that'd indicate that pvz averages out and terran is the weaker of them all. If your opinion isn't in the poll, you simply don't vote. You mean the poll where TvT is the weakest matchup for only 13% of terrans? Do you realise that that is impossible on the ladder and therefore the majority of people are not actually using their own statistics to backup their poll choice?
Not valid man, because they are 3 choices not 2. So it's possible.
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I'm a platinum Zerg, and ZvT used to be my best matchup by far... That was about 3 months ago, when I actually got to play against Terrans on ladder. Now it's hard to even gauge my skill in the matchup because I only pull 1-2 Terrans out of every 20 Ladder games I play. It's fairly balanced between ZvZ's and ZvP's, but ZvT is incredibly rare for me, and this has been the case for the past three months at the very least.
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First, you can't ignore statistical evidence - all of the arguing about WHY is debateable, statistics gathered from observing THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF PLAYERS are not debatable.
I feel that there are several reasons for the trend.
The easiest, or at least most obvious part to dismiss is the high quantity of terran players in lower leagues. It's simple - players play the campaign, play Terran throughout, hop online as terran. These players are unskilled, and most do not deticate themselves, so sit in bronze/silver until they become inactive.
Easy enough.
From Platinum to GM, Terran is the lowest played race in EVERY league. This suggests that as players improve, terran wins less. There are only 2 explanations for this in my opinion - 1. Terran is underpowered. 2. Terran demands far more skill to play (or both).
Some people have suggested that terrans are tired of getting nerfed, so they change races. I disagree, as if you continue to have success, you won't change - for example, if the reaper speed up is nerfed, and you never researched it anyway, you wouldn't say 'I'm tired of nerfs, I'm leaving.' Changing race results from other issues.
Bending to popular opinion, let's argue that terran requires more skill to play. This explains the general trend seen over plat to GM - it is harder to play, more skill is demanded to be in higher leagues, and thus terran players as skilled as a platinum Protoss, for example, are kept out of platinum, and thus these statistics. In general, if it is harder to be a terran *league*, there will be less terrans in said league.
This also explains the GSL arguement of 'there are so many terrans in the GSL', as it is accepted, and backed by evidence, that Koreans are generally more skilled than foreigners. As such, there are a greater proportion of players able to play terran at a higher league.
Another thing of note is that a 'Terran UP' argument wouldn't explain this presence of terrans in the GSL, which weakens that arguement.
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge).
The 'l2play noob terran' arguement seems ridiculous right about now.
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On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge).
Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is.
And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated.
Which is as likely.
... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S
But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution.
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On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution.
but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now?
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So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues?
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On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues?
Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed.
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On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now?
No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically).
It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down.
I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder.
For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor).
Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better.
I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing.
And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course).
And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races
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i havnt had time to read all the 40 pages of this but has anyone talked about the fact that % of z's and p's is relatively constant and the terran drops down as you go from GM towards gold. this only means that there is more random players and so it seems that all the missing terran players are really random players :D
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On March 13 2012 19:24 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues? Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed.
You do realize that this influences high level play a lot? On average even pros will make more mistakes with it then, which influences highlevel balance.
Such changes from autopilot to manual control always need buffs going with them (like a cooldown buff for the charge or a speedbuff) so that this can balance out with the less optimal control (on average).
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On March 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 19:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues? Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed. You do realize that this influences high level play a lot? On average even pros will make more mistakes with it then, which influences highlevel balance. Such changes from autopilot to manual control always need buffs going with them (like a cooldown buff for the charge or a speedbuff) so that this can balance out with the less optimal control (on average).
Of course i realize. I said "fixes lower league TvP", I didn't mean that should be done because it affects GM as well. The problem in lower leagues is now that A-moving protoss decimates Terran with 0 APM because of autocast charge.
edit: It's like add a autocast stutterstep to MMM and then lower leagues will work. Then both players can 0 APM and watch the battle happen. Of course that makes no sense.
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On March 13 2012 20:24 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 19:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues? Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed. You do realize that this influences high level play a lot? On average even pros will make more mistakes with it then, which influences highlevel balance. Such changes from autopilot to manual control always need buffs going with them (like a cooldown buff for the charge or a speedbuff) so that this can balance out with the less optimal control (on average). Of course i realize. I said "fixes lower league TvP", I didn't mean that should be done because it affects GM as well. The problem in lower leagues is now that A-moving protoss decimates Terran with 0 APM because of autocast charge. edit: It's like add a autocast stutterstep to MMM and then lower leagues will work. Then both players can 0 APM and watch the battle happen. Of course that makes no sense.
The lower league people should just practice more and to engage better. This sort of stuff is asking to make the game dumber because they don't want to take the time to practice.
And seriously, when people say "the protoss a-moves over me and wins", I always assumed that the terran also A-moves their army and prays for victory as well, but at this point it doesn't work out.
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On March 13 2012 20:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 20:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 20:18 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 19:24 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 19:17 karpo wrote:
So after almost 40 pages of more or less "Protoss is too strong versus terran", "terran requires the best micro/macro", and overall "terran has a hard time" why not propose change instead of just ranting on and on about how tough it is. I really don't know what this thread is supposed to achieve beside terrans circlejerking about how tough their life is, and how it's all due to protoss.
Do you want balance changes for lower leagues? Do you want overall changes to protoss and zerg? Do you accept that balance at the highest levels might mean that some races have it harder in lower leagues? Remove autocast from zealot charge and lower leagues TvP has been fixed. You do realize that this influences high level play a lot? On average even pros will make more mistakes with it then, which influences highlevel balance. Such changes from autopilot to manual control always need buffs going with them (like a cooldown buff for the charge or a speedbuff) so that this can balance out with the less optimal control (on average). Of course i realize. I said "fixes lower league TvP", I didn't mean that should be done because it affects GM as well. The problem in lower leagues is now that A-moving protoss decimates Terran with 0 APM because of autocast charge. edit: It's like add a autocast stutterstep to MMM and then lower leagues will work. Then both players can 0 APM and watch the battle happen. Of course that makes no sense. The lower league people should just practice more and to engage better. This sort of stuff is asking to make the game dumber because they don't want to take the time to practice. And seriously, when people say "the protoss a-moves over me and wins", I always assumed that the terran also A-moves their army and prays for victory as well, but at this point it doesn't work out.
The bolded part is exactly the point. I'm glad you understood it too. Terran is disappearing from ladder because it takes them a lot more time and effort to "practive more and engage better" then it takes a protoss player. There are tons of players who just want play every now and then and not grind their ass off trying to learn that. And many of them have now stopped playing, hence "terran is disappearing from ladder". I think that was the original question in OP ?
edit: I play protoss
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EPT
