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On March 13 2012 21:19 Bajsgrodan wrote:
Terran is fun to play. Heres a hints for terrans with problems with Protoss:
Try to do as much damage as you can with your medivac/stim timing and abuse your midgame strenght vs protoss. Dont rush to ghosts. Midgame/earlygame is where you need to get an advantage to be able to win in lategame. Focus on strong timings!
There is no point in leaving tips and tricks for players, your tips aren't groundbreaking nor revolutionary. They're also not helpful considering the fact that you're not equating for the protoss doing anything but turtling like a retard.
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On March 13 2012 23:02 Sated wrote:
Whether or not Terran is harder at lower levels is irrelevant. Balance only matters at the highest level. If you are low-level and want to improve then winning shouldn't matter. If you are low level and only want to win then you're only going to win 50% of your games no matter what race you play - switch race and see what happens if you're sick of playing Terran. To be honest, if Terran is harder at lower-levels, so be it - at least the game is relatively balanced at the highest level.
This is nothing like the sad Zealot phase when even high-level Protoss players were getting stomped by Terrans doing the same 111 every game. Until you hit the stage were pro Terrans are doing awfully for months on end against an easy to read build, you have no reason to be upset.
If you think that the situation we have now (concerning the lower levels) is just how it's meant to be, then by all means, I hope you enjoy playing PvP and PvZ all day. It's only gonna get worse.
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On March 13 2012 22:14 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 22:07 Jarree wrote:On March 13 2012 21:39 Cereb wrote:
Holy moly! This is a Terran self-pity thread if I ever saw one!
There have been less Terran players since the beginning of the game, even when they were completely overpowering the other races.
...
Fail  Your gut feeling < facts. Check sc2ranks.com if you like. I don't understand why people post things like this. Well, they gotta come up with made up facts to sustain their opinions. Otherwise, their opinions would be completely off base and biased.
Oh, I guess you're right! Sorry about that! 
Still makes me sick to see all this self-pity - just look at how quick you guys were to point out this one thing and ignoring the rest of my comments, with this other guy showing up just to say "yes you are absolutely right about how wrong he is" So the self-pity could continue in peace away from all those who would dare to disagree.
Not to mention this thread pretty much filled with "gut-feelings"
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On March 13 2012 23:05 give.ViviD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 21:19 Bajsgrodan wrote:
Terran is fun to play. Heres a hints for terrans with problems with Protoss:
Try to do as much damage as you can with your medivac/stim timing and abuse your midgame strenght vs protoss. Dont rush to ghosts. Midgame/earlygame is where you need to get an advantage to be able to win in lategame. Focus on strong timings! There is no point in leaving tips and tricks for players, your tips aren't groundbreaking nor revolutionary. They're also not helpful considering the fact that you're not equating for the protoss doing anything but turtling like a retard.
To be fair, ''turtling like a retard'' is often a very good way for protoss to win.
Then again the tip wasn't really helpful ^^.
And Terrans if you feel that TvP is unbeatable, stop playing Terran?
It's either that or watching pros and learning, I confess i stopped playing terran and started playing random.
And now i don't rage while playing anymore ^_^
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If blizzard removed charge autoactivate it would make things bearable. I remember one game where the P went mass zealot witha few archons and amoved my army. It took me 3-4 of stutter step to kill all the zealots, during which macro was near impossible. Whereas, on the P side, he didnt even need to look at his army. Splitting is not automatic, so charge should not be either.
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On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed.
So it's the same for all the Terran players here complaining about P and Z being easy. Did they have some replays about them owning consistently GM/Master players with P or Z when they are still stuck in Diamond with Terran? Can we see some facts about this "Terran needs more skill" thing?
Yes T requires better multitask I agree but in a RTS multitask isn't everything.
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I play Zerg, I find Terran macro to be insanely difficult, could this be part of the issue?
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On March 13 2012 23:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:28 krell wrote:
If blizzard removed charge autoactivate it would make things bearable. I remember one game where the P went mass zealot witha few archons and amoved my army. It took me 3-4 of stutter step to kill all the zealots, during which macro was near impossible. Whereas, on the P side, he didnt even need to look at his army. Splitting is not automatic, so charge should not be either.
Concussive Shells shouldn't be automatic either. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:09 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 23:02 Sated wrote:
Whether or not Terran is harder at lower levels is irrelevant. Balance only matters at the highest level. If you are low-level and want to improve then winning shouldn't matter. If you are low level and only want to win then you're only going to win 50% of your games no matter what race you play - switch race and see what happens if you're sick of playing Terran. To be honest, if Terran is harder at lower-levels, so be it - at least the game is relatively balanced at the highest level.
This is nothing like the sad Zealot phase when even high-level Protoss players were getting stomped by Terrans doing the same 111 every game. Until you hit the stage were pro Terrans are doing awfully for months on end against an easy to read build, you have no reason to be upset. If you think that the situation we have now (concerning the lower levels) is just how it's meant to be, then by all means, I hope you enjoy playing PvP and PvZ all day. It's only gonna get worse. How would you suggest we balance Terran at lower-levels (since you seem to think it is imba) that doesn't make high-level Terran overpowered as all hell? Balance should be done at the highest level for exactly this reason. Everyone who isn't pro is trash at this game - accept that and have fun playing the game.
If you leave a marauder marine army against a swarm of zealots without stutterstepping. You lose. That does not hold true for zealots in their current state.
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So i read the most of the post now and im realy not sure what your problem is?
Protoss is to strong in TvP? Against what? Bio,Mech?!
You guys can QQ as much as you want. But this is no way to fix it. Try new stuff. How about building 2 ravens with PDD everytime? You can snipe Colosses so easy with Vikings then. Or how about BC's Ghost and "NUKES". Avilo as example started playing BC against P at lategame.
Switching Race or how they say in a FPS "Winning Team Joiner" are fully retarded in my opinion. You have to try and test new BO's and Strategys instead of QQ why the old BO dosent work anymore.
Greetings ShiiQ
Btw. Sorry for my bad english. But i hope you understand what i try to say.
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I've seen HuK get a full charge zealot surround on a MMM that didn't kite at all and the terran still won. Terran might have it tough but it's really hard to tell what's true and what's subjective bs coming from an angry terran whiner in this thread.
Especially when checking the most vocal terrans post history you'll find lots and lots of PvT whine in everything from this thread to LR threads from IEM/GSL.
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On March 13 2012 23:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:28 krell wrote:
If blizzard removed charge autoactivate it would make things bearable. I remember one game where the P went mass zealot witha few archons and amoved my army. It took me 3-4 of stutter step to kill all the zealots, during which macro was near impossible. Whereas, on the P side, he didnt even need to look at his army. Splitting is not automatic, so charge should not be either.
Concussive Shells shouldn't be automatic either. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:09 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 23:02 Sated wrote:
Whether or not Terran is harder at lower levels is irrelevant. Balance only matters at the highest level. If you are low-level and want to improve then winning shouldn't matter. If you are low level and only want to win then you're only going to win 50% of your games no matter what race you play - switch race and see what happens if you're sick of playing Terran. To be honest, if Terran is harder at lower-levels, so be it - at least the game is relatively balanced at the highest level.
This is nothing like the sad Zealot phase when even high-level Protoss players were getting stomped by Terrans doing the same 111 every game. Until you hit the stage were pro Terrans are doing awfully for months on end against an easy to read build, you have no reason to be upset. If you think that the situation we have now (concerning the lower levels) is just how it's meant to be, then by all means, I hope you enjoy playing PvP and PvZ all day. It's only gonna get worse. How would you suggest we balance Terran at lower-levels (since you seem to think it is imba) that doesn't make high-level Terran overpowered as all hell? Balance should be done at the highest level for exactly this reason. Everyone who isn't pro is trash at this game - accept t hat and have fun playing the game.
People need to be able to play the game at a level lower than pro to be able to watch and connect with them. If this game essentially becomes a 2 race game below pro, then the game is a failure. As long as the mechanics of each race scale so ridiculously different with skill, people will continue to see balance as a problem instead of their own skill.
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On March 13 2012 23:43 ShiiQ wrote:
So i read the most of the post now and im realy not sure what your problem is?
Protoss is to strong in TvP? Against what? Bio,Mech?!
You guys can QQ as much as you want. But this is no way to fix it. Try new stuff. How about building 2 ravens with PDD everytime? You can snipe Colosses so easy with Vikings then. Or how about BC's Ghost and "NUKES". Avilo as example started playing BC against P at lategame.
Switching Race or how they say in a FPS "Winning Team Joiner" are fully retarded in my opinion. You have to try and test new BO's and Strategys instead of QQ why the old BO dosent work anymore.
Greetings ShiiQ
Btw. Sorry for my bad english. But i hope you understand what i try to say.
Transition to BCs? Maybe it works if you have a bunch of PFs to hold while you make the transition. BCs are really vulnerable to feedback and storms though. Nukes? Well, it can work as a harass (if the guy doesnt take the probes away) or in a situation where you're trying to get positional advantage.
I don't think switching races is retarted at all. People will pursue what they think it's best for them (more fun or more results, idk). What's happening is that more and more people are realizing that playing P or Z gives them more results (or fun). Would you rather be a diamond Terran or a master Protoss? For some people, this kind of accomplishment matters, for some it doesn't.
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On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed.
wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up.
When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to?
but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race)
http://drop.sc/132191
http://drop.sc/132192
if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like.
and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents):
http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jay
your turn...
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On March 13 2012 23:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:28 krell wrote:
If blizzard removed charge autoactivate it would make things bearable. I remember one game where the P went mass zealot witha few archons and amoved my army. It took me 3-4 of stutter step to kill all the zealots, during which macro was near impossible. Whereas, on the P side, he didnt even need to look at his army. Splitting is not automatic, so charge should not be either.
Concussive Shells shouldn't be automatic either. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:09 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 23:02 Sated wrote:
Whether or not Terran is harder at lower levels is irrelevant. Balance only matters at the highest level. If you are low-level and want to improve then winning shouldn't matter. If you are low level and only want to win then you're only going to win 50% of your games no matter what race you play - switch race and see what happens if you're sick of playing Terran. To be honest, if Terran is harder at lower-levels, so be it - at least the game is relatively balanced at the highest level.
This is nothing like the sad Zealot phase when even high-level Protoss players were getting stomped by Terrans doing the same 111 every game. Until you hit the stage were pro Terrans are doing awfully for months on end against an easy to read build, you have no reason to be upset. If you think that the situation we have now (concerning the lower levels) is just how it's meant to be, then by all means, I hope you enjoy playing PvP and PvZ all day. It's only gonna get worse. How would you suggest we balance Terran at lower-levels (since you seem to think it is imba) that doesn't make high-level Terran overpowered as all hell? Balance should be done at the highest level for exactly this reason. Everyone who isn't pro is trash at this game - accept that and have fun playing the game.
If the game is so broken that balanced at the pro level means incredibly unbalanced at every other level of the game, then SC2 will not last. You need the casual player base to support the pro level. if everyone gets fed up with the game because of terrible balance issues for all leagues besides GM/high masters, then who's left to watch and support the pro scene? There would be no nfl without youth football, no MLB without little league
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On March 14 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 22:56 Big J wrote:On March 13 2012 20:59 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:27 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 13 2012 19:10 aebriol wrote:On March 13 2012 19:01 wTeffecT wrote:
Conclusion: The statistics fundamentally suggest that Terran is the most difficult, or skill demanding race to play. This explanation best fits the stats of any explanations suggested here or elsewhere (at least to my knowledge). Or that because Terran was OP at release, people fell in rankings and quit because of that because even though they individually improved, their ranking got worse, because the race was OP, and no longer is. And zerg players didn't get better, but their rankings improved so they are more easily motivated. Which is as likely. ... oh, but I do think that Terran is the race that get the most out of increased skill and higher APM. S But I disagree that your conclusion is the only possible solution. but then the distribution would have to be even. Unless your argument is that terran is underpowered now? No, what I am saying is that those that still play, have been motivated to continue playing since release (basically). It's much more normal for people to stay on roughly the same skill level, than for them to move constantly up and down. I am making one statement that is not supported by fact, but opinion, and that is that those players that chose Terran, and were higher ranked, are more likely to have quit the game as a whole, rather than continue playing, because if they stayed at roughly the same skill level - they would have fallen in ranks on the ladder. For example: You were mid diamond at release, now you are low diamond or plat. Not because you got worse, but because you progressed about the same as others, and your race is now much, much harder to play than it was at release (because at release you could make 3 barracks, stim, marine marauder, and kill people, real easy, due to faster build time for stim, tech lab, reactor). Skill wise, you might have been 'as skilled' when you were mid diamond, as the zerg that was high plat ... but the zerg, without having gotten better, is now mid diamond. So he moved up in the leagues, without actually getting better. I would think that is a motivating factor for zergs and a demotivating factor for Terrans to continue playing. And I don't think anyone can disagree that right at release, T was OP, and Z was UP (but we might disagree about the current state of the game of course). And I think people are more likely to quit the game, than to change races Well, pretty much anyone who has ever played all 3 races knows that terran is easily the hardest race. I mean come on, destiny and incontrol offracing as terran barely beat low master/diamond league players, both grandmaster with P and Z, whereas players like avilo, demuslim, etc.. who main terran can offrace as P and Z and still take games off GM players. This just goes to show how much easier Z and P are, I would even go as far as to say that some pro protoss players wouldn't be pro if it wasn't for protoss and how easy it is. Yes, hate me for what I just said, I don't care, but it's the truth. I have nothing against Incontrol or Destiny at all, I quite like them as players, but the level of skill they displayed when they were offracing as terran was actually quite shocking. But whenever I see a terran player offrace they are doing just fine. I really mean it, some people wouldn't be considered pros if they played terran instead of Z or P. Just think about it, most "newcomers" are protoss players, players such as Feast or Bling... do you honestly think they would be as succesful with terran? They would probably be high masters, but there is no way they would be considered pros if they played terran. Why is it that no foreign terran really stands out but there are plenty of foreign Zergs and Protoss players who regularly do really well at events. We sometimes see demuslim and thorzain show some good games, but none of them ever get even close to winning a tournament (last was thorzain TSL3) and I refuse to accept that it's just because terran players are worse, in fact I'm actually quite tired of this argument. I mainly play protoss now, because I got tired of playing terran and how stressful it is and from my own experience (this is just my own experience, read opinion) I find protoss to be significantly easier, microing is much easier and less time consuming and macroing seems to be alot more laid-back. I also don't fear the lategame like I do with terran, I actually want to go lategame when I play protoss. Granted PvP and PvZ are weak matchups for me, simply because I lack understanding, but I can guarantee you had I put as many hours into protoss as I put into terran I would be much higher on the ladder. People always claim that terran players are just worse and that's why they are less succesful. This is not acceptable. Blizzard even said that terran is doing the worst on ladder (and no, I wont link it yet again, I linked this at least 20 times now, if you haven't read it by now you are clearly not very interested in the discussion and not informed at all). So what is it? Are terrans just worse than P and Z players? Why is that? Because all terrans are brainless monkeys? To assume that all terrans across the board are just worse on average is not only bullshit it is highly offensive aswell. But maybe, eventually some people will realize that terran is in fact harder to play than the other races, I can tell from my own experience because I play all races (some more than others, but right now I main protoss pretty much, 80 ladder games as toss this season and 30 as terran). Most people who talk about the difficulty of terran have in fact never even played terran on the ladder. Just try it, buy a second account, and play terran on that account. I can guarantee you that you will be ranked 3 leagues lower than with your main race. In reverse, a terran player offracing as Z or P is sometimes even in the same league with his offrace. Just try it. I'm tired of people engaging in this discussion who don't even play all the races at the very least play all races when you are going to talk about how difficult each race is. Seriously, this makes me really angry, because it's irrational and only down to personal opinion which isn't even experience-based, it's pure bias and what YOU want it to be like. edit: And let me just add this (because I just saw grubby in the live stream list), I think grubby for example would do really well as terran, because he has the necessary micro abilities to play terran at an extremely high level, I would even go as far as to say that grubby, if he switched to terran permanently would enjoy more success with terran than with protoss. I'm almost 100% sure about that. sry, but that's just one opinion. I've been acting as Terran trainings partner for high diamond Zergs of my Clan from time to time and I have beaten Master Terrans and diamond Zergs/Protoss players alike in macro games (and Master Zergs/Protoss players with cheeses) but I'm surely performing lower with Protoss (~diamond level). From my experience, you only need to be fast and generally OK with Terran set ups, then you will do fine while with Protoss you need very specific gameplans and mechanics (Forcefield, forcefield, forcefield... you get them - and your sentry to combat unit ratio - right or you better not play protoss) to win. For me it feels like this lack of Terrans is plat-diamond is exactly what I'm experiencing in those leagues: bad mechanics, generally. Once you have somewhat good mechanics (Master+), the Terran ratio is actually increasing compared to the leagues from which those players are "recruited" from - which in all honesty, play out as "BO wins": you kill that greedy zerg, or you get overrun; you go robotics, or you get cheesed to death and overrun; you get that advantage, or you can't make up for your inefficient army. That's why I will keep on saying, that no race is really "harder" to learn. If you don't have the mechanics, you will get in trouble at some point. If you don't have a clue what you do, you will get in trouble at some point. Just those things have different influences at different "skill levels" (meaning your ladder rank/MMR, as it is the best and only approximation we have for the term "skill") Personally I'd assume that I would need more effort to get to (mid-high) Masters (where I'm now with Zerg) with Protoss , then it would take me with Terran. This may have something to do with bio feeling/playing out a lot like Zerg but in my opinion it comes down to very refined build orders/scouting intells from Protoss to cover all the possibilities (which I don't have at all, as it is a pure experience thing), while you can be pretty well off against everything with Terran as long as you are just able do a bunch of stuff at once (which I generally do have, I would much rather have to learn the unit amounts I need to do things; and get a more solid Mech opening against Protoss going... I'd not switch race to play baserace vP again, even if I have to do it Goody style with 1hour PF slow pushes). This is all talk. Come up with some evidence. anyone can claim to be at a certain level with a certain race, but unless you actually prove it this is all just talk. Citation needed. wait, so when I say I have beaten X with Terran and Y with Protoss and I'm Z with Zerg, I should back it up. When you write how you are as good with Protoss as with Terran and Protoss is easier and stuff like that, you don't have to? but well, you shall be served, just played two games as Terran against diamond opponents (though I have no clue if the TvT Terran opponent was main Terran; hasn't played a ladder game this season, was Master in season 2-5, but don't know which race) http://drop.sc/132191http://drop.sc/132192if you don't like the quality of the games, or want to critizise something, I don't care. You wanted replays of me playing Terran at that level, this is how this skilllevel looks like. and here is my (Zerg) rank, though my MMR is worse than my rank (I'm usually playing rank 10-50 Master opponents): http://sc2ranks.com/eu/987923/Jayyour turn...
Oh wow! The first actual solid stuff is from a non terran in the biggest terran circlejerk thread i've ever seen. I hope to see ChaosTerran provide his PvT and TvP replays for proof next.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 00:01 petro1987 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 13 2012 23:43 ShiiQ wrote:
So i read the most of the post now and im realy not sure what your problem is?
Protoss is to strong in TvP? Against what? Bio,Mech?!
You guys can QQ as much as you want. But this is no way to fix it. Try new stuff. How about building 2 ravens with PDD everytime? You can snipe Colosses so easy with Vikings then. Or how about BC's Ghost and "NUKES". Avilo as example started playing BC against P at lategame.
Switching Race or how they say in a FPS "Winning Team Joiner" are fully retarded in my opinion. You have to try and test new BO's and Strategys instead of QQ why the old BO dosent work anymore.
Greetings ShiiQ
Btw. Sorry for my bad english. But i hope you understand what i try to say. Transition to BCs? Maybe it works if you have a bunch of PFs to hold while you make the transition. BCs are really vulnerable to feedback and storms though. Nukes? Well, it can work as a harass (if the guy doesnt take the probes away) or in a situation where you're trying to get positional advantage. I don't think switching races is retarted at all. People will pursue what they think it's best for them (more fun or more results, idk). What's happening is that more and more people are realizing that playing P or Z gives them more results (or fun). Would you rather be a diamond Terran or a master Protoss? For some people, this kind of accomplishment matters, for some it doesn't.
Sure if someone switching Race because its more Fun for him its okey. But if someone says I'm switching race because Race X is OP now... sorry man, but i can't agree with this kind of thinking. But thats just my oppinion.
Yeah you have to play with PF if you go for BC but the question is why not? You maybe cant play it atm. at top 50 GM Level but high level play is another topic.
I'm a Diamond Terran and im pretty sure i could be a master Protoss with maybe 1 month of traning. But i dont see any reason to play Protoss. I took Terran because of the early Aggresiv Harrasing style of play. So why should i play now Makro Turrtel Boring Protoss just to get Master?
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On March 13 2012 23:51 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 23:41 krell wrote:On March 13 2012 23:36 Sated wrote:On March 13 2012 23:28 krell wrote:
If blizzard removed charge autoactivate it would make things bearable. I remember one game where the P went mass zealot witha few archons and amoved my army. It took me 3-4 of stutter step to kill all the zealots, during which macro was near impossible. Whereas, on the P side, he didnt even need to look at his army. Splitting is not automatic, so charge should not be either.
Concussive Shells shouldn't be automatic either. On March 13 2012 23:09 petro1987 wrote:On March 13 2012 23:02 Sated wrote:
Whether or not Terran is harder at lower levels is irrelevant. Balance only matters at the highest level. If you are low-level and want to improve then winning shouldn't matter. If you are low level and only want to win then you're only going to win 50% of your games no matter what race you play - switch race and see what happens if you're sick of playing Terran. To be honest, if Terran is harder at lower-levels, so be it - at least the game is relatively balanced at the highest level.
This is nothing like the sad Zealot phase when even high-level Protoss players were getting stomped by Terrans doing the same 111 every game. Until you hit the stage were pro Terrans are doing awfully for months on end against an easy to read build, you have no reason to be upset. If you think that the situation we have now (concerning the lower levels) is just how it's meant to be, then by all means, I hope you enjoy playing PvP and PvZ all day. It's only gonna get worse. How would you suggest we balance Terran at lower-levels (since you seem to think it is imba) that doesn't make high-level Terran overpowered as all hell? Balance should be done at the highest level for exactly this reason. Everyone who isn't pro is trash at this game - accept that and have fun playing the game. If you leave a marauder marine army against a swarm of zealots without stutterstepping. You lose. That does not hold true for zealots in their current state. I could just as easily say: If you leave a Stalker army against a swarm of Marauder/Marine then it doesn't matter how much micro you do, you lose. Given the cost of the units, don't you think that this is unfair? Seriously, this is a terrible argument. You know Marine/Marauder is bad against Zealots and keep using it. Doing the same thing and expecting different results has a name, you know...
there is no alternative to mmm as the main army for terran.
the only other mineral heavy unit we have is the hellion, once charge is researched, the more durable zealot will catch and overpower the hellion, not to mention that siegetanks and thors have only very limited use in tvp so mechupgrades are not exactly what we want to spend money on either...
in addition hellions suffered a severe nerf because of their imbalanced harrassment potential, ofc it was justified, but the zealot is the single unit that profits the most out of it, lets say it was collateral damage for the greater good of balance.
the battlehellion (conesplash instead of a line + more hp) will change tvp drastically on the lower levels of play imo, because the bio does not have to back off like crazy when protected by these beefy more or less meleeunits, but until then, there is a difference in skill required to actually win, and i do not think protoss can be happy either when their wins are credited to their race rather than their skill.
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I think a lot of people are confusing balanced difficulty and balanced power.
Assuming Terran is about the right power but reaching that potential is harder (I think that's right and the general consensus) then a straight buff is a terrible option that only leads to Terran domination at the top. Instead, Zerg and (particularly) Protoss need to get more of the versatile opportunities to display skill that Terran has with more emphasis on multi-tasking and micro across all skill levels.
The most simple change that could be made is removal of all the awful units which inspire terrible, low skill gameplay: get rid of the Roach, Colossus and Marauder. Obviously you'd need to make changes to other units to make this balanced, but man it would be good.
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