|
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
|
On March 14 2012 06:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:I think I finally understand this thread. "Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!" "Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!" "Those people are too good, they don't count." "Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues." "Those people are too bad, they don't count." "Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race." "I don't live there, those people don't count." It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses.
Hold on just a second there, buddy. What let you deduce that terran is doing "fairly well" in the lower leagues, from what I can see in link you posted, most terrans are actually stuck in silver and bronze. How exactly did you come to the conclusion that terran is "doing fairly well" in the lower leagues.
On March 14 2012 06:26 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL. This. I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell. Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races. For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level). I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier. Your claim seems to be that Protoss is so ridiculously easy mechanically. You say this despite saying in the same post: 1. That you were ranked down twice when you switched to protoss. 2. That you play siginificantly slower as protoss atm. 3. That if you had 1000 games, your protoss account is "easily going to be high diamond if not low masters", when your terran account already is masters. It sounds to me as though you'd like to use this to claim that you are an expert on protoss, despite the above facts illustrating that you probably actually know relatively little about them. Artosis thought we were the easiest race, too, when he played zerg. Now that he's played protoss for a couple seasons (and admittedly, there has been a patch or two which was unkind to PvZ) - he's changed his tune. I'm guaranteeing you after 6 months of protoss, you will too. Keep in touch.
Dude, I said I'm not good with Protoss. But the reason I lose so much in PvP and PvZ isn't mechanics, I can do pretty much everything just fine with my APM, the reason I lose in these matchups is a lack of understanding, I'll often times makes the wrong units, push out at the wrong timing. I don't even have proper build orders, I just play like I want, because imo that's the best way to learn a race, by experimenting and reacting to what you see and not just using one and the same build every game. I'll do exactly the same once I start playing Zerg, yes it does result in absolutely stupid losses every now and then, but the reason I play protoss is because I want to learn the race not just 1 build order and learning a race for me means that I try to utilize all their units, try different strategies and build not just 1 thing over and over again.
Mechanically (like many others have said) protoss is easier than Zerg and Terran, by a mile. But there are other aspects that you have to learn when you switch to protoss. As zerg I feel you can react and rely more on mechanics, whereas as protoss you have to understand builds and units alot better.
|
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
Mind if I add this to the OP since it seems like one of the major problems for many Terrans is TvP?
|
On March 14 2012 06:42 ePLocust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:36 ilion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 06:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:I think I finally understand this thread. "Terrans are vanishing from the ladder because Terran is too hard!" "Are you kidding me? Terrans have been crushing GSL since forever!" "Those people are too good, they don't count." "Well, Terrans seem to be doing fairly well in the lower leagues." "Those people are too bad, they don't count." "Well, Terrans are doing okay on the Korea/Taiwan ladder across the board. In fact, if anything Zerg seems to be the underrepresented race." "I don't live there, those people don't count." It's not about balance or difficulty, it's just Terrans wanting to find an excuse for their losses. Alright. I am a platinum terran and I've probably played 1000 games with it including team games. So how about I switch to Protoss and see how I do, and you switch to terran and see how you do. Deal? We will post replays say 3 weeks from now. I'd take you up on that. I'm a diamond toss and I have a smurf in plat that I went 4-0 with terran the other day with. Nothing cheesy either
That would be an interesting experiment.
|
On March 14 2012 06:54 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. Mind if I add this to the OP since it seems like one of the major problems for many Terrans is TvP?
I don't mind, feel free. I actually would love to see it as I put effort into my posts and sometimes thinks there will just be one guy coming quoting me and saying "PROTOSS OP!" and everyone just jumps onto that-_-;
|
On March 14 2012 06:58 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:54 NoctemSC wrote:On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. Mind if I add this to the OP since it seems like one of the major problems for many Terrans is TvP? I don't mind, feel free. I actually would love to see it as I put effort into my posts and sometimes thinks there will just be one guy coming quoting me and saying "PROTOSS OP!" and everyone just jumps onto that-_-;
Adding it right now, thanks NarutO.
|
On March 14 2012 06:35 EmilA wrote:
Do you really think being overrepresented in the shit leagues is a good thing? Really?
GSL is a shit league? Really? Korea Masters and Korea Diamond are shit leagues? Really?
On March 14 2012 06:35 EmilA wrote:The main point people are making is that Terran's learning curve is way, way steeper than that of Protoss/Zerg and thus the race is hard to perform with for non top masters koreans.
Yes, your point is that Terran is hard to perform at the level you are. If you were better, you'd have the best race. If you were worse, you'd have the best race. But at the specific level you're at, you don't, so you're complaining. I'm not sure why the balance complaints against Terran from people who are better or worse than you shouldn't count though. After all, at their specific level, Terrans are overrepresented.
On March 14 2012 06:35 EmilA wrote:Terran is not even doing well on the KR/Taiwan ladder and they're going extinct on CN.
Korea/Taiwan
Tied with Protoss as least represented in Grandmasters, 4 players behind Zerg.
Most represented in Masters.
Most represented in Diamond.
Second most represented in Platinum.
Second most represented in Gold.
Second most represented in Silver.
Most represented in Bronze.
China
Least represented in Grandmasters.
Second most represented in Masters.
Least represented in Diamond.
Least represented in Platinum.
Second most represented in Gold.
Second most represented in Silver.
Most represented in Bronze.
In all that combined, the only leagues in which Terran is less represented than Zerg are Grandmasters, and China's Diamond and Platinum leagues.
|
On March 14 2012 05:26 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:53 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 dani` wrote:On March 14 2012 03:59 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:43 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:41 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 03:33 karpo wrote:On March 14 2012 03:27 petro1987 wrote:On March 14 2012 02:31 itsjuspeter wrote:I cannot believe this thread is still open... it's hit a downward slide into a whinefest that I should not of indulged in. I have played all three races at the high masters level, hitting top 8 on my terran account(my main is protoss), around 1k points last season before i stopped playing it and went back to my main. I agree that I feel terran needs more done to be successful, but that is just how the race is played. You have medivacs because you are supposed to drop and multitask, if you want to be lazy and sit and turtle then go play protoss, though protoss does have its own variation of drops though nothing as effective as a 1x8 marine drop or a 2x8 double pronged drop on two locations. I actually found the time I played terran to be quite fun because it was much more active, but I don't believe it to be that much harder to play than protoss. Defending a good drop harassing as protoss is extremely stressful and incorrect splits can mean you the game. I've been on both worlds, played PvT and TvP, as a top 8 masters in both Protoss and Terran, I can say that yes Terran is more active but that is because the race is designed to be that way, while Protoss is generally more defensive and has their own troubles to worry about. If you are losing to protoss then watch your replays, check how you engaged those final battles, I can assure you, you'll find something you could of done different, maybe kite/run your MMM further to give additional time for vikings to snipe collosi, or scan/snipe observers so you can EMP sweep with cloaked ghosts and devestate that protoss army when it's out of position, if I can do it as an offrace, im SURE you main terrans should be able to as well. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/771876/1/Porabea/My Terran Offrace for last season, correction: I hit around 900 pts. maxed around 950 before I stopped http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/451290/1/Keo/ My Main and only played account this season This data is actually interesting it shows you can be high masters with both races. Well, let's check the numbers a little bit. You did 55-59 with the Terran account while you are 64-57 with the Protoss account. Hmmm I wonder which one is posting better results. A you serious? You're really going to nitpick about a 55-59 versus 64-57 score? And it's his terran offrace and he's still masters. You really, really want to grasp at any straw, don't you? Well, I never said someone that is top 8 masters (7 rank) as Protoss would not be at least masters as T. He probably has the mechanics to back it up. All I'm saying is that this is not very indicative that Terran is not harder than P. In fact, It's an indication of the opposite. Besides, he has 568 league wins with the Terran account. It's not like he played a couple games and it's just his offrace. Hell 568 is a lot of wins dude. So someone who actually shows his stats for both accounts and another guy who shows that he can play terran at a decent level aren't indicative that a good P/Z can play great as T, it's an indication of the opposite? So now we're saying that high masters players do well as terran whatever main race they play. So where is the cut of line where terran becomes very hard to play and protoss is so strong? Earlier it seemed like you and ChaosTerran were drawing the line at players like Destiny and InControl, but both those players are surely better than both guys who posted replays/stats in this thread? So what's it going to be? I'll just make things simpler for you. Let's say a person plays at least 1000 games with a Terran account and at least 1000 games with a Protoss account. This person ends up with a 55-59 record as T (rank 14 masters) and 64-57 record as P (rank 7 masters). Now explains to me how this proves that T is not harder than P, at least for the person we are talking about. If I ever let you have the impression that I think that any P player would instantly be bronze in T, that's never what I meant. My point in the end is: If T is harder than P, than a person, given a reasonable amount of games played with both races, would post worse results in the end with T (not waaaaaaaaay worse, just worse). About the Destiny and InControl part. If you have bothered to actually read my posts, you would know that I even criticized that part of ChaosTerran's post. I said we just couldn't know that. You really want to continue to use 55-59 vs 64-57 as 'evidence' that T is harder than P? Are you out of your mind? Did you even read the part where he said Protoss is his main race? If anything, the fact he can perform similarly with his off-race (Terran) 'proves' Terran is easier... Now before you grab your flamethrower, I don't think they are. It's just pretty obvious you read whatever you want to read.As for this topic, I am sorry to see so many Terran players suffer from the 'we are so weak'-complex, it seems even worse than Zerg players in their days. Just go play one of the other races for a while and stick with them, or (more likely) come to value Terran when you play against them / realize how awesome they are and switch back. Terran is not weak, guys. I don't think you bothered looking at the numbers. He has 568 league wins in the Terran account. Hell, 1000 games and it's just an off race? Really? It's not like he played a couple games and reached masters. So I'm a diamond Terran and If I play 1000 games with Protoss and get to diamond it proves T is harder than P? If so, please let me know and I'll prove it. LoL. This. I am low master as terran and only started to play Protoss a few weeks back, it ranked me into platinum (like I already said my PvP and PvZ is horrible) and I already have a diamond MMR after only winning 40 games or so. You give me another 900 games to practise protoss and I'm easily going to be high diamond if not low masters with protoss aswell. Now, I'm not claiming that someone can just play Protoss and win every single game, protoss needs to learn alot of specific stuff, (how many sentries do I build, exact timings, etc..), what I'm saying is that protoss is much easier to play mechanically. It's much easier than both of the other races. For example, I use SC2 gears, when I play protoss I have around 90 apm (and that is really all I need to do what I have to do), as terran I have around 130 (and there is so much more I could do if I had higher apm) and as Zerg I have around 160 apm (god knows what I'm doing with Zerg but I feel like the race plays more fluently than the other 2 races imo and I have beaten diamond league players as Zerg before and will eventually start to offrace as Zerg on my second account, once I hit diamond with protoss, just so I can play all 3 races at a decent level). I mean it's practically a fact that protoss is the easiest race when it comes down to mechanics, that's why they are so strong at the "non" top level, because they don't need to drop 3 places at once or kite for 30 seconds, protoss is more of about strategic thinking than raw mechanics. which would be fine, if the mechanics weren't so much easier.
That´s just the way it is, zerg consists of a lot more clicks, but doesn´t mean they have to do a lot more stuff. When I play protoss I usually have around 90-100 APM in SC2 gears, while when I offrace with zerg (which I have played less than 30 games with) my APM is around 150. I don´t think zerg macro was harder, it´s just that it´s a lot of clicks, spreading creep injecting larvae, spamming units out of larvae and sending zerglings everywhere. I still don´t think that zerg was mechanically harder.
The problem terran players are having in TvP is not about the difficulty of playing protoss, it´s about how useless their T3 units are. Lets just logically: An insanely gas heavy army with huge ammounts of splash damage and quick reinforcements is bound to destroy a low health cheap army.
|
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
|
How did this become a Protoss vs Terran thread?
._.
|
Honestly, I don't think it's really protoss to the extent that we all believe. I think a lot of Terran problems stem from the fact that Terran as a race needs to constantly take risks throughout the game to stay even. Zerg and Protoss can both play fairly safe/passive styles which will provide good late game options. Terran on the other hand is constantly on the clock to win the game before lategame or at least do sufficient damage to your opponent to allow you to compete in the late game. Couple this with the fact that 99% of us play SC2 as a hobby and don't have time to become intimate with every timing in the game, the fact that terran is forced into risky maneuvers all game just equates to many more situations to throw the game away.
|
On March 14 2012 07:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
If you didnt say TvP at the start of the post, one would think that you meant playing versus zerg.
Thats how the game works. Let your enemy get his desired army composition and you will have hard time.
|
On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving.
The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
|
1.4.2 terrans worldwide average 28.3% diamond and up, and they average 30.1% platinum and under.
1.2.0 terrans worldwide averaged 30.3% diamond and up (no GM), and they averaged 34.5% platinum and under (most of which is bronze).
Is that so horrible? As there's 2-8 percent random players for each league i'm guessing the average if the divide was perfect would be 31/31/31 or so. So there's no enormous drop in terrans compared to 1.2.0 released more than a year ago, and terran overall isn't more than a couple of percent below what you expect from a fair divide.
|
On March 14 2012 07:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
I'm saying you make it easy for the Protoss. Have you watched a good Korean play TvP? They pressure, fake pressure and force the Protoss to multitask. If you don't apply pressure and he could happily tech up and chronoboost his economy, yes obviously there will be a point where you can play like a god and you will still lose. But its the same in Terran vs Zerg. If I let him drone up to 80 and hive tech, well... there's not much I can do about that match from that point.
But you've lost the match in a way earlier stage of the game then. There is so much variation in Terran vs Protoss and I'm not saying its easy to get a grasp of it. You could blindly run into a 4 gate pressure after expansion while you want to apply pressure yourself, but thats sometimes how it goes. You should always base your decisions and builds on what you see, and if you really feel unsecure you can always sacrifice a scan because information sometimes is worth more than faster minerals.
Show and park a medivac at the edge of a Protoss base - what is he going to do about it? It can be empty as well, he cannot know. He needs to be prepared and he needs forces there, usually they won't have phoenix or templars all the time or especially in the timing you should hit with your drops.
The problem with playing Terran vs Protoss for a lot of guys will be overcommiting and hastily trying to finish the game off. It just doesn't work even with a superior army, thats the defenders advantage. But you really don't need to press the issue, unlike most guys I'm not saying that a Protoss lategame army is unbeatable, because if you have way superior economy sacrifice parts of it and increase your army value. Hell, if you feel your are so far ahead econoically and his only chance is this death-style army , get two planetaries at a critical location. They won't stop him, but they will deal damage and buy time. While he moves out, 'doom-drop' him... and such a doom drop can be just 2 medivacs worth of units, because the DPS of upgraded bio is insanely high.
It really is kind of the same as playing against a mech Terran. If you try to finish him off, you will most likely throw away units and you cannot afford that. So... what I'm saying is not that you need to play like a god and he can basically camp and do nothing, but that you need to play well and with some thoughts put into it. You chose Terran, the active - agressive race. If he can shut down every agressive attempt, man.. that Protoss is a good player or you simply didn't do it good enough, so improve your play.
Your mindset seems to be the biggest problem here.
|
All i see are people complaining that at their personal skill level they are having trouble with terran. Step your game up move into the next "tier" and all of a sudden terran is OP, move into the next tier, and suddenly terran is UP.
Focus on yourself not the race or continue to be frustrated as the power of races fluctuates depending on skill "tier". I used to think terran was too hard to offrace and now i love doing it since i can actually multi drop while macroing. If thats to hard practice it or switch races and complain when you plateau with the new race with new problems
You dont deserve to beat people ever and if you lose, well you lost no ifs ands or buts about it. If someone beat you without multitasking and just sitting their well then that's your problem for not pushing them with your races given abilities.
Fix your mindset, naruto smashed the nail on the head.
|
On March 14 2012 07:22 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
Well, I'm talking about balance. Balance is given when all races of equal chances of winning with the options that are given. I think on a very high level, both Protoss and Terran can win and that is all that matters in terms of balance. Terran was a 'noob' or low level unfriendly race in Broodwar as well, but it wasn't considered unfair.
You are completely right that if the Terran isn't good the Protoss will probably never be forced into actually doing something, but if the Terran is good, Protoss is very tricky and hard to play and I think you should know very well, as your Terran vs Protoss sometimes looks untouchable and sometimes not as good, but thats just how the game works out sometimes. If all you are attempts are shut down, he'll probably win...
|
On March 14 2012 07:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal.
Correct. He is in fact implying that protoss has, by far, the most cost effective army if you let them just sit there and build the death ball. By playing a much more difficult strategy you FORCE the protoss to become more difficult as a race. This game isn't made to be easy at a high level, it is made to be challenging and competitive. Also, terrans do all all of the things you mentioned against zerg almost all the time (and if you don't you will get fucking rolled) so I don't even begin to understand your complaint... Is it that you want an easy MU that you can win every time or something?
|
On March 14 2012 07:22 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. The fact you have to be so good to play on the same level as players doing way less and just camping proves the fact terran is very non progamer unfriendly and is exactly in line with all the complaints. I think the matchup is fine at the theoretical highest level but that's not the issue people are having here.
So what do you suggest? Having the other races balanced so that Terran can have an easy 50% winrate at ladder and foreigner level, and give up on GSL where it would become the big Terran fiesta?
This shit can only be solved by major game design changes, not buffs or nerfs, and it won't come magically like that I guess. It will require at least the expansions to know if Terran can be "fixed" or not.
|
On March 14 2012 07:25 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 07:15 SupLilSon wrote:On March 14 2012 06:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
For most of 'us' Terran vs Protoss is so insanely hard because we are not playing it right. We are neither multitasking or playing like we should, not are we hitting the timings or weaknesses Protoss has. To be able to actually play decent you would go away from 'Wow, Protoss is so easy and can just 1a over everything I have - what an overpowered race' to 'what did I do wrong, where did I miss my chances to be agressive'.
If you are a competent Terran you will be ahead in supply usually or ahead in economy. In case of a two base allin you will probably lack army, but have superior economy. Protoss chrono boost can be a very strong in the combination with an all in so defending is very hard, but its possible if you read the game well.
But about actually playing Terran vs Protoss you have to understand how Protoss works. Most Protoss players want to spend chronoboost on their economy or their tech rather than spending it on warpgates. It is their macro ability. If you can force them to chronoboost units instead of economy or upgrades, you will be in good shape as your macro ability the mule will always be on the field.
'Protoss has to do nothing, they just sit and then win' . Yes obviously. Protoss can sit back, build and army and crush you, because YOU(!) allowed him do to so. Make him split is units, make him spend his chronoboost early on stuff he doesn't want to chrono while you pressure. Do not lose your drops or harass, if you cannot pick off the robo but save the medivac, SAVE THE GODDAMN THING! I get very mad at ladder and I'm probably no the most mannered person, yet I get angry because I understand its my lack of ability to win.
The Koreans can do it, and they don't win because they are Korean, they win because they put time and thought into the match up and probably even try to analyze how the Protoss is thinking. If Terran is too hard for you or feels to demanding in micro, macro and multitasking play another race and you will find yourself with problems that might be different, but no way less concerning.
glhf improving. So what you're saying is TvP is hard because most of us play it wrong. But playing it right would mean executing a much more difficult strategy/game plan than your opponent. Unless you think that parking your army in the middle of your base while chrono-boosting probes/tech, building an unstoppable late game army is harder than baiting your opponent into splitting his forces, tactically dropping and harassing all game, sniping tech, denying expansions, micro-ing like a god when you're a mere mortal. I'm saying you make it easy for the Protoss. Have you watched a good Korean play TvP? They pressure, fake pressure and force the Protoss to multitask. If you don't apply pressure and he could happily tech up and chronoboost his economy, yes obviously there will be a point where you can play like a god and you will still lose. But its the same in Terran vs Zerg. If I let him drone up to 80 and hive tech, well... there's not much I can do about that match from that point. But you've lost the match in a way earlier stage of the game then. There is so much variation in Terran vs Protoss and I'm not saying its easy to get a grasp of it. You could blindly run into a 4 gate pressure after expansion while you want to apply pressure yourself, but thats sometimes how it goes. You should always base your decisions and builds on what you see, and if you really feel unsecure you can always sacrifice a scan because information sometimes is worth more than faster minerals. Show and park a medivac at the edge of a Protoss base - what is he going to do about it? It can be empty as well, he cannot know. He needs to be prepared and he needs forces there, usually they won't have phoenix or templars all the time or especially in the timing you should hit with your drops. The problem with playing Terran vs Protoss for a lot of guys will be overcommiting and hastily trying to finish the game off. It just doesn't work even with a superior army, thats the defenders advantage. But you really don't need to press the issue, unlike most guys I'm not saying that a Protoss lategame army is unbeatable, because if you have way superior economy sacrifice parts of it and increase your army value. Hell, if you feel your are so far ahead econoically and his only chance is this death-style army , get two planetaries at a critical location. They won't stop him, but they will deal damage and buy time. While he moves out, 'doom-drop' him... and such a doom drop can be just 2 medivacs worth of units, because the DPS of upgraded bio is insanely high. It really is kind of the same as playing against a mech Terran. If you try to finish him off, you will most likely throw away units and you cannot afford that. So... what I'm saying is not that you need to play like a god and he can basically camp and do nothing, but that you need to play well and with some thoughts put into it. You chose Terran, the active - agressive race. If he can shut down every agressive attempt, man.. that Protoss is a good player or you simply didn't do it good enough, so improve your play. Your mindset seems to be the biggest problem here.
I agree with the mindset problem, and I'll admit I usually start TvP's thinking it's already over. But understand that what you're saying implies that playing Terran in fact does require more skill to compete at the same level. It's also gotten kinda old for people to continuously point to "Korean Terrans" to assuage and gripes about Terran. Yes, a select few of the best players in the world are having some degree of success with Terran. It's almost entirely irrelevant to the rest of us because we will never be close to their level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
