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On March 26 2012 08:40 ][Primarch][ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 08:38 manloveman wrote:On March 26 2012 08:33 Cyclone999 wrote:
Protoss players need to see that when you guys are struggling, Blizzard helped you guys by buffing you guys (and nerfing us). When we have trouble in TvP, Blizzard does absolutely nothing, except when we figure something out (1/1/1, for example) Blizzard nerfs it. Yes, 1-1-1 is now totally unviable... that is not true, 1-1-1 is still viable against some protoss openings. Get the facts!
Ahaha. That is 2 times sarcasm has gone past your head in such a short time frame
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On March 26 2012 09:12 darkscream wrote:
marine king prime
k, no more terran complaining amirite?
Another Protoss that hasn't read the thread =="
Well pros dont a move. You have to assume that mc for example already plays to the best of his ability, with his max apm. So giving him more micro task would hurt him. As such, that would be a nerf to high level toss. A significant one too.
We're not talking huge, make-every-zealot have to be micro'd and do some crazy warp prism harass ==" if you look back a couple pages behind there were a couple ideas I think that would make Protoss micro a bit harder for lower-leagues.
Please admit it, Protoss micro is not as hard as Terran. Zealots are a-move, colossus are a-move, archons are a-move.
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On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are
I am by no means a casual player, I've played thousands of games. I am just at my wits end with TvP. Since the mass zealot and upgrade style came out around a year ago I've won perhaps 10 bona-fide macro games. Every other win I've had is either 1-1-1, or the protoss failing a 4gate or something. I'd play protoss if I didn't find everything about it so damn boring.
I also want the game to be hard, but equally so for all races. Why does it seem like I have to play with a handicap?
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On March 26 2012 09:18 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are I am by no means a casual player, I've played thousands of games. I am just at my wits end with TvP. Since the mass zealot and upgrade style came out around a year ago I've won perhaps 10 bona-fide macro games. Every other win I've had is either 1-1-1, or the protoss failing a 4gate or something. I'd play protoss if I didn't find everything about it so damn boring. I also want the game to be hard, but equally so for all races. Why does it seem like I have to play with a handicap?
Are you complaining about the imbalance of late game or are you angry that terran is harder to play than protoss? If it's the latter then that's just something you're going to have to overcome or switch your race.
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On March 26 2012 09:18 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are I am by no means a casual player, I've played thousands of games. I am just at my wits end with TvP. Since the mass zealot and upgrade style came out around a year ago I've won perhaps 10 bona-fide macro games. Every other win I've had is either 1-1-1, or the protoss failing a 4gate or something. I'd play protoss if I didn't find everything about it so damn boring. I also want the game to be hard, but equally so for all races. Why does it seem like I have to play with a handicap?
Play mech.
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On March 26 2012 09:18 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:12 darkscream wrote:
marine king prime
k, no more terran complaining amirite? Another Protoss that hasn't read the thread ==" Show nested quote +
Well pros dont a move. You have to assume that mc for example already plays to the best of his ability, with his max apm. So giving him more micro task would hurt him. As such, that would be a nerf to high level toss. A significant one too.
We're not talking huge, make-every-zealot have to be micro'd and do some crazy warp prism harass ==" if you look back a couple pages behind there were a couple ideas I think that would make Protoss micro a bit harder for lower-leagues. Please admit it, Protoss micro is not as hard as Terran. Zealots are a-move, colossus are a-move, archons are a-move.
If you had read my posts, you would know that I already stated that. And ive seen the ideas, and they all inject further apm need onto the toss player. Thats fine and also fair. That is, up until ultra high level, where resources like apm become much scarce. I actually think the balance, atm, seems very good a high level.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:22 seansye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:18 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are I am by no means a casual player, I've played thousands of games. I am just at my wits end with TvP. Since the mass zealot and upgrade style came out around a year ago I've won perhaps 10 bona-fide macro games. Every other win I've had is either 1-1-1, or the protoss failing a 4gate or something. I'd play protoss if I didn't find everything about it so damn boring. I also want the game to be hard, but equally so for all races. Why does it seem like I have to play with a handicap? Are you complaining about the imbalance of late game or are you angry that terran is harder to play than protoss? If it's the latter then that's just something you're going to have to overcome or switch your race.
Now, granted, some people are having trouble with TvP. I can accept that. In fact, it's EVEN POSSIBLE that there might be some sort of balance issue.
That being said, if you've played "thousands of games" and have only won "10 bona-fide macro games" in the past year, it's possible that there's a problem on your end. Even if there's a balance issue, if your TvP winrate in the lategame is really that bad, it's either because you're playing a style that doesn't work well in the lategame (going all in or being uneconomical somehow) or you're just not that good personally at lategame TvP. Most people in this thread are like "yeah I have a 45% winrate instead of the usual 50" or something like that. 10 games out of THOUSANDS over a year long stretch indicates to me that you should CONSIDER the possibility the problem MAY be on your end.
Just a thought.
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On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are
"Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games.
For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap.
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This thread concluded (100pages ago) that terrans were frustrated with some aspects of the game, specially late game. Also that in the current metagame terran feels "harder" to multitask/micro than the other races.
Gratz for mkp, sure we learned a lot from mlg but the point still stands.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap.
I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race.
On March 26 2012 09:38 Tsuki.eu wrote:
This thread concluded (100pages ago) that terrans were frustrated with some aspects of the game, specially late game. Also that in the current metagame terran feels "harder" to multitask/micro than the other races.
Gratz for mkp, sure we learned a lot from mlg but the point still stands.
Well, I think elements of the thread from 100 pages ago concluded that, but some people are new to the thread and want to discuss things. Maybe some people disagree. I don't think everyone will come away from this thread in agreement, but just because some people had some opinion previously doesn't mean we can't benefit from sharing our thoughts on the same topic with each other now.
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On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap.
At that point, you just need to play more and get better at making decisions and army movement. That's the biggest thing that affects people at ALL skill levels. You can outmacro your opponent but if you make the wrong decisions/your army is out of position, you can still lose.
The only way to get better is to play more so that you get into those "situations" more often and know how to react. Also being active with your units but knowing where they should and shouldn't be is a very hard and subtle thing to learn, but it's pretty much what separates good players from great players. Zerg players are most guilty of this - They ball up their units at their base and just get rolled when another player's units are right outside their base. This is the absolute worst place for a Zerg to be. You need to use your units to delay, stall, pick off reinforcements, threaten to counter-attack etc. all at once, then crush the attack once the opponent commits.
If you watch Broodwar, you see Zerg players do this all the time. Terran/Protoss players are also very good so they know how many units you probably have/where they are, so they can make decisions based on how many units they have and how many you will have when they get there etc. It's all very high level stuff.
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On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race.
And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion.
Your conclusion includes the idea that switching races is easier than getting better. I posit that it's entirely possible that, EVEN IF terran is harder to play/learn/improve at a certain level, it is not harder than switching races. I do not believe that your conclusion is accurate because it is a superset of "terran is hard at this level". If you were the confine it to that statement, it would flow logically from your premises.
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On March 26 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion. Your conclusion includes the idea that switching races is easier than getting better. I posit that it's entirely possible that, EVEN IF terran is harder to play/learn/improve at a certain level, it is not harder than switching races. I do not believe that your conclusion is accurate because it is a superset of "terran is hard at this level". If you were the confine it to that statement, it would flow logically from your premises.
In that case, the problem would be that Terrans are leaving the game at a much faster pace than Zerg or Protoss. From that, you could conclude that Terran is harder, or less fulfilling to play, and since there aren't Terrans flooding masters league, we could at the very least could assume that it's not because Terran is fundamentally "easier" at the gold to diamond range.
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Real men play Terran. Just leave Terran to the true pros.
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On March 26 2012 10:06 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
How about that MKP : P
He's a damn good player, arguably the best at this point in time, but he's not relevant to the current discussion.
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On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:38 Tsuki.eu wrote:
This thread concluded (100pages ago) that terrans were frustrated with some aspects of the game, specially late game. Also that in the current metagame terran feels "harder" to multitask/micro than the other races.
Gratz for mkp, sure we learned a lot from mlg but the point still stands. Well, I think elements of the thread from 100 pages ago concluded that, but some people are new to the thread and want to discuss things. Maybe some people disagree. I don't think everyone will come away from this thread in agreement, but just because some people had some opinion previously doesn't mean we can't benefit from sharing our thoughts on the same topic with each other now.
Your opinion about race switching being too hard isn't exactly true. Unless ofc, you're talking about high masters or above players. The regular low-master, diamond player usually knows only a couple builds for each matchup and doesn't have a way refined take on all matchups, so it doesn't take a whole lot of time to switch. Besides, it's not like you have to completely relearn the game when you switch.
And I find the opinion of aksfjh pretty accurate to be honest. I myself stopped playing (T Diamond, so not good at all lol) mainly due to TvP. I would probably switch races, but I just preferred to go back to BW (it's a better game in every way). But I can see many people in the same situation that I was that were just not familiarized to BW or just wanted to play the newer game switching races.
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On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:38 Tsuki.eu wrote:
This thread concluded (100pages ago) that terrans were frustrated with some aspects of the game, specially late game. Also that in the current metagame terran feels "harder" to multitask/micro than the other races.
Gratz for mkp, sure we learned a lot from mlg but the point still stands. Well, I think elements of the thread from 100 pages ago concluded that, but some people are new to the thread and want to discuss things. Maybe some people disagree. I don't think everyone will come away from this thread in agreement, but just because some people had some opinion previously doesn't mean we can't benefit from sharing our thoughts on the same topic with each other now.
I have no problems with other opinions, i was talking about the "ololol mkp did it, so you can do it to" spam.
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Well, after thinking this thread and alot of threads like it were just dumb, I have to change my mind.
35 1v1s low masters games. THREE fucking terran total. Time to forget this game exists and just wait for D3 i guess 
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EPT
