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On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals
Sure, but Terrans don't have the luxury of making 8 workers at once.
On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords
And they don't get to stockpile larvae when they forget to build a supply depot they actually get punished for it.
On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do
And they don't get free constant vision of 75% of the map with creeps and overlord spread.
On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion
And they don't get expansions that are 25% cheaper to make.
On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold.
False. They can scout a baneling bust or a roach/ling all-in and still lose to it if they have anything less than three bunkers and pulled scvs.
On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"?
This is true, though you can't complain about a bunch of things and then just say you're trying to prove a point especially when it's only half of the story. You're right, these differences doesn't necessarily mean one race is better, however I figured I'd fill in the other half for you.
Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran?
Not at all. However they can kill a Zerg's army late game with excellent micro, and he can remax before they can reach his base. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Zerg?
The answer to both of these would be no. It's not right to nerf simply because things are different. However "difference" and "imbalance" aren't mutually exclusive of course. Just showing you the other side of the field.
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On March 26 2012 16:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals Sure, but Terrans don't have the luxury of making 8 workers at once. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords And they don't get to stockpile larvae when they forget to build a supply depot they actually get punished for it. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do And they don't get free constant vision of 75% of the map with creeps and overlord spread. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion And they don't get expansions that are 25% cheaper to make. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold. False. They can scout a baneling bust or a roach/ling all-in and still lose to it if they have anything less than three bunkers and pulled scvs. Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"? This is true, though you can't complain about a bunch of things and then just say you're trying to prove a point especially when it's only half of the story. You're right, these differences doesn't necessarily mean one race is better, however I figured I'd fill in the other half for you. Show nested quote +Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran? Not at all. However they can kill a Zerg's army late game with excellent micro, and he can remax before they can reach his base. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Zerg? The answer to both of these would be no. It's not right to nerf simply because things are different. However "difference" and "imbalance" aren't mutually exclusive of course. Just showing you the other side of the field.
Does Protoss get cheaper expansions?
Does Terran have to choose between making workers or units?
Do Zerg start with 75% of the map covered in creep, or is this even remotely easy to accomplish?
I don't really get what you're saying about supply blocking, if a Zerg doesn't make his overlords on time his macro goes to hell, larva stocked up has nothing to do with it.
That's exactly the point, if Terran throws down the required bunkers and pulls scvs he generally holds. Zerg players often lose to allins despite cutting drones, making units, and preparing defenses. They're too different things.
-----
I haven't argued that any of those factors are imbalanced, but the sheer number of differences makes the argument that Terrans are "outplaying" Protoss seem relatively absurd. With so many differences, how can you possibly know?
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On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
2x Stephano
2x Naniwa
1x Idra
1x HuK
since Thorzain's TSL 3. Two of them (HuK and 1x Naniwa) were living and training in Korea during their tournament wins. Please tell me again about that HUGE foreign Zerg/Protoss dominance. If it wasn't for Stephano, it would be 1-1-1 including TSL 3. And even if you don't want to discount HuK and Naniwas wins, it would still be a supersmall sample
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments
Sjow, Loner, Select, Major, merz, dde, SarenS, dde, Sjow, Select... just pick your favorite foreign Terran from the list of tournament winners in the same timeframe as above.
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On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it?
Maybe the few good foreigners (about 5-10 total that can hold a candle to any decent korean) just don't play terran as much? Maybe terrans at the skill level of foreign pros aren't able to maximize the effectiveness of the terran race? Maybe it's due to the fact that foreigners seldom win anything nowadays.
Again, what are they balancing for? The top or casuals and average pros? How do you target a patch that improves the chances for mediocre pros and casuals but not for the best of the best? How do you target platinum to grandmaster but not gold and below or GSL-level players? Seems like some people in this thread are asking the devs to become miracle workers.
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On March 26 2012 17:07 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals Sure, but Terrans don't have the luxury of making 8 workers at once. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords And they don't get to stockpile larvae when they forget to build a supply depot they actually get punished for it. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do And they don't get free constant vision of 75% of the map with creeps and overlord spread. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion And they don't get expansions that are 25% cheaper to make. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold. False. They can scout a baneling bust or a roach/ling all-in and still lose to it if they have anything less than three bunkers and pulled scvs. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"? This is true, though you can't complain about a bunch of things and then just say you're trying to prove a point especially when it's only half of the story. You're right, these differences doesn't necessarily mean one race is better, however I figured I'd fill in the other half for you. Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran? Not at all. However they can kill a Zerg's army late game with excellent micro, and he can remax before they can reach his base. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Zerg? The answer to both of these would be no. It's not right to nerf simply because things are different. However "difference" and "imbalance" aren't mutually exclusive of course. Just showing you the other side of the field. Does Protoss get cheaper expansions? Does Terran have to choose between making workers or units? Do Zerg start with 75% of the map covered in creep, or is this even remotely easy to accomplish? I don't really get what you're saying about supply blocking, if a Zerg doesn't make his overlords on time his macro goes to hell, larva stocked up has nothing to do with it. That's exactly the point, if Terran throws down the required bunkers and pulls scvs he generally holds. Zerg players often lose to allins despite cutting drones, making units, and preparing defenses. They're too different things. ----- I haven't argued that any of those factors are imbalanced, but the sheer number of differences makes the argument that Terrans are "outplaying" Protoss seem relatively absurd. With so many differences, how can you possibly know?
He was talking about zergs expansions costing less, not protoss.
Are you trying to say that zergs ability to choose between making units and workers is a disadvantage? Nothing prevents you from making 50% units and 50% workers and be able to put on pressure just like any other race. Zerg players (myself included) are often greedy and try to avoid make any units until they reached 70 workers and stop making drones for the rest of the game if things go according to plan.
You expect terrans to play like Mvp or Marineking but spreading creep / positioning overlords that anyone in diamond league and above does is too hard? 
Supply block is as bad for any race. Do not claim that supply drop (I know that you haven't but alot of ignorent people are doing this in this thread) is a good way to avoid supply blocks because a terran want to avoid using that as much as a zerg wants to use his first inject larva of the game on a creep tumor.
All races got strong timings and all ins. This is not sc2 from a year ago when terrans were the only ones doing it.
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Terran is always getting nerfed so u hardly see any more terrans around.
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On March 26 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments2x Stephano 2x Naniwa 1x Idra 1x HuK since Thorzain's TSL 3. Two of them (HuK and 1x Naniwa) were living and training in Korea during their tournament wins. Please tell me again about that HUGE foreign Zerg/Protoss dominance. If it wasn't for Stephano, it would be 1-1-1 including TSL 3. And even if you don't want to discount HuK and Naniwas wins, it would still be a supersmall sample http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_TournamentsSjow, Loner, Select, Major, merz, dde, SarenS, dde, Sjow, Select... just pick your favorite foreign Terran from the list of tournament winners in the same timeframe as above.
6 tournaments won since the TSL3 by foreigners and you think that's not huge? Let's go for top 3 finishes by foreign terrans in all of the premier tournaments: 3. Only 3 total top 3 finishes by foreign terrans (2 by Kas, one by select). It's pretty obvious that foreign terrans aren't performing as well as their P/Z counterparts.
EDIT: Btw, I counted a total of 25 tournaments after TSL3 that had foreigners + Koreans. Here's the top 3 count for P/Z foreigners: 26 (note: some of these were foreign only tournies, but I decided to count those anyway. Without counting those there's about 20)
So three top 3 placings by foreign terrans(two by Kas), and about 20 for foreign Protoss/Zerg. Is it easier to see the dominance now?
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On March 26 2012 17:24 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:07 ThomasHobbes wrote:On March 26 2012 16:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals Sure, but Terrans don't have the luxury of making 8 workers at once. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords And they don't get to stockpile larvae when they forget to build a supply depot they actually get punished for it. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do And they don't get free constant vision of 75% of the map with creeps and overlord spread. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion And they don't get expansions that are 25% cheaper to make. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold. False. They can scout a baneling bust or a roach/ling all-in and still lose to it if they have anything less than three bunkers and pulled scvs. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"? This is true, though you can't complain about a bunch of things and then just say you're trying to prove a point especially when it's only half of the story. You're right, these differences doesn't necessarily mean one race is better, however I figured I'd fill in the other half for you. Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran? Not at all. However they can kill a Zerg's army late game with excellent micro, and he can remax before they can reach his base. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Zerg? The answer to both of these would be no. It's not right to nerf simply because things are different. However "difference" and "imbalance" aren't mutually exclusive of course. Just showing you the other side of the field. Does Protoss get cheaper expansions? Does Terran have to choose between making workers or units? Do Zerg start with 75% of the map covered in creep, or is this even remotely easy to accomplish? I don't really get what you're saying about supply blocking, if a Zerg doesn't make his overlords on time his macro goes to hell, larva stocked up has nothing to do with it. That's exactly the point, if Terran throws down the required bunkers and pulls scvs he generally holds. Zerg players often lose to allins despite cutting drones, making units, and preparing defenses. They're too different things. ----- I haven't argued that any of those factors are imbalanced, but the sheer number of differences makes the argument that Terrans are "outplaying" Protoss seem relatively absurd. With so many differences, how can you possibly know? He was talking about zergs expansions costing less, not protoss. Are you trying to say that zergs ability to choose between making units and workers is a disadvantage? Nothing prevents you from making 50% units and 50% workers and be able to put on pressure just like any other race. Zerg players (myself included) are often greedy and try to avoid make any units until they reached 70 workers and stop making drones for the rest of the game if things go according to plan. You expect terrans to play like Mvp or Marineking but spreading creep / positioning overlords that anyone in diamond league and above does is too hard? Supply block is as bad for any race. Do not claim that supply drop (I know that you haven't but alot of ignorent people are doing this in this thread) is a good way to avoid supply blocks because a terran want to avoid using that as much as a zerg wants to use his first inject larva of the game on a creep tumor. All races got strong timings and all ins. This is not sc2 from a year ago when terrans were the only ones doing it.
Yes, balance prevents me from doing so. 2rax and 1CC outproduce (=300invested from the start)1hatch+queen+pool (=400 invested from the start). Now add that your marines beat my zerglings, so additionally to my need of building another hatch (and queen) I have to tech to stand a chance once the armies get bigger. That's why I can't mix it.
everyone who says differently has never done the math and has absolutly no clue about the game.
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On March 26 2012 17:31 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments2x Stephano 2x Naniwa 1x Idra 1x HuK since Thorzain's TSL 3. Two of them (HuK and 1x Naniwa) were living and training in Korea during their tournament wins. Please tell me again about that HUGE foreign Zerg/Protoss dominance. If it wasn't for Stephano, it would be 1-1-1 including TSL 3. And even if you don't want to discount HuK and Naniwas wins, it would still be a supersmall sample http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_TournamentsSjow, Loner, Select, Major, merz, dde, SarenS, dde, Sjow, Select... just pick your favorite foreign Terran from the list of tournament winners in the same timeframe as above. 6 tournaments won since the TSL3 by foreigners and you think that's not huge? Let's go for top 3 finishes by foreign terrans in all of the premier tournaments: 3. Only 3 total top 3 finishes by foreign terrans (2 by Kas, one by select). It's pretty obvious that foreign terrans aren't performing as well as their P/Z counterparts.
It's mostly the same few foreigners that place well and it's more or less impossible to tell if this is due to terran being a bit weak at the foreigner skill level or if it's just that the few foreigners that can compete with koreans play mostly P and T.
Edit: How many players account for those 26 wins for P/Z?
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Does Protoss get cheaper expansions?
Well.. yes they do.
300 + 50 for an Hatchery
400 for a Nexus
550 for an Orbital / 550/100 for a Planetary.
The cost is quicky worth it but you get the idea.
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On March 26 2012 17:39 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:31 IMoperator wrote:On March 26 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments2x Stephano 2x Naniwa 1x Idra 1x HuK since Thorzain's TSL 3. Two of them (HuK and 1x Naniwa) were living and training in Korea during their tournament wins. Please tell me again about that HUGE foreign Zerg/Protoss dominance. If it wasn't for Stephano, it would be 1-1-1 including TSL 3. And even if you don't want to discount HuK and Naniwas wins, it would still be a supersmall sample http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_TournamentsSjow, Loner, Select, Major, merz, dde, SarenS, dde, Sjow, Select... just pick your favorite foreign Terran from the list of tournament winners in the same timeframe as above. 6 tournaments won since the TSL3 by foreigners and you think that's not huge? Let's go for top 3 finishes by foreign terrans in all of the premier tournaments: 3. Only 3 total top 3 finishes by foreign terrans (2 by Kas, one by select). It's pretty obvious that foreign terrans aren't performing as well as their P/Z counterparts. It's mostly the same few foreigners that place well and it's more or less impossible to tell if this is due to terran being a bit weak at the foreigner skill level or if it's just that the few foreigners that can compete with koreans play mostly P and T. Edit: How many players account for those 26 wins for P/Z?
I only did a rough count because I didn't feel like going through the data for a third time, and I counted around 10. Feel free to correct me, it's almost 3 am and I'm tired.
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On March 26 2012 17:31 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On March 26 2012 16:52 IMoperator wrote:
One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments2x Stephano 2x Naniwa 1x Idra 1x HuK since Thorzain's TSL 3. Two of them (HuK and 1x Naniwa) were living and training in Korea during their tournament wins. Please tell me again about that HUGE foreign Zerg/Protoss dominance. If it wasn't for Stephano, it would be 1-1-1 including TSL 3. And even if you don't want to discount HuK and Naniwas wins, it would still be a supersmall sample http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_TournamentsSjow, Loner, Select, Major, merz, dde, SarenS, dde, Sjow, Select... just pick your favorite foreign Terran from the list of tournament winners in the same timeframe as above. 6 tournaments won since the TSL3 by foreigners and you think that's not huge? Let's go for top 3 finishes by foreign terrans in all of the premier tournaments: 3. Only 3 total top 3 finishes by foreign terrans (2 by Kas, one by select). It's pretty obvious that foreign terrans aren't performing as well as their P/Z counterparts. EDIT: Btw, I counted a total of 25 tournaments after TSL3 that had foreigners + Koreans. Here's the top 3 count for P/Z foreigners: 26 (note: some of these were foreign only tournies, but I decided to count those anyway. Without counting those there's about 20) So three top 3 placings by foreign terrans(two by Kas), and about 20 for foreign Protoss/Zerg. Is it easier to see the dominance now?
yup, you take top3 placings, because it makes Terrans look bad;
I take "Major" Tournament wins, because it makes Terran look good.
--> I can totally see it: no statistical relevance, but categories in which Terrans do very fine and categories where they don't. No evidence to sustain "lack of good foreign Terrans".
(btw does anyone know why the IEM qualifiers are counted as Premiere Tournament, but the MLG Winter Qualifiers are nowhere to be found? (Drewbie won one of them) )
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Because at first terran is the most race we use.. after that we bored... lol
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On March 26 2012 17:42 Noocta wrote:Well.. yes they do. 300 + 50 for an Hatchery 400 for a Nexus 550 for an Orbital / 550/100 for a Planetary. The cost is quicky worth it but you get the idea.
You don't have to factor in the cost for CC upgrades. What is important is to have a main building at a resource location where your harvesters can bring back minerals and gas to. Rest is just macro mechanics/static defenses. Just like Protoss has to make some pylons and cannons to be able to warp in at that new nexus and defend it.
If you go like that Zerg has to pay 150 more for the queen at each hatch. Quit it with the bias and look at things reasonably.
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On March 26 2012 17:42 Noocta wrote:Well.. yes they do. 300 + 50 for an Hatchery 400 for a Nexus 550 for an Orbital / 550/100 for a Planetary. The cost is quicky worth it but you get the idea.
We cant compare it that easy.
1st difference:
hatch+2supply
nexus+10supply
CC+11supply
Also as mentioned above hatch needs queen.
Orbital costs 550, but gives you 270minerals soon after finishing.
CC needs scv while being constructed and nexus not.
CC can fly.
Overall no way to compare, since all races and their economics are different.
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On March 26 2012 17:07 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals Sure, but Terrans don't have the luxury of making 8 workers at once. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords And they don't get to stockpile larvae when they forget to build a supply depot they actually get punished for it. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do And they don't get free constant vision of 75% of the map with creeps and overlord spread. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion And they don't get expansions that are 25% cheaper to make. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold. False. They can scout a baneling bust or a roach/ling all-in and still lose to it if they have anything less than three bunkers and pulled scvs. On March 26 2012 15:35 ThomasHobbes wrote:That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"? This is true, though you can't complain about a bunch of things and then just say you're trying to prove a point especially when it's only half of the story. You're right, these differences doesn't necessarily mean one race is better, however I figured I'd fill in the other half for you. Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran? Not at all. However they can kill a Zerg's army late game with excellent micro, and he can remax before they can reach his base. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Zerg? The answer to both of these would be no. It's not right to nerf simply because things are different. However "difference" and "imbalance" aren't mutually exclusive of course. Just showing you the other side of the field. Does Protoss get cheaper expansions? Does Terran have to choose between making workers or units? Do Zerg start with 75% of the map covered in creep, or is this even remotely easy to accomplish? I don't really get what you're saying about supply blocking, if a Zerg doesn't make his overlords on time his macro goes to hell, larva stocked up has nothing to do with it. That's exactly the point, if Terran throws down the required bunkers and pulls scvs he generally holds. Zerg players often lose to allins despite cutting drones, making units, and preparing defenses. They're too different things. ----- I haven't argued that any of those factors are imbalanced, but the sheer number of differences makes the argument that Terrans are "outplaying" Protoss seem relatively absurd. With so many differences, how can you possibly know?
Following this line of argumentation how could you ever possibly know? Maybe Steppes of War wasn't so bad after all. I agree that a lot of the posts in this thread are way over the top but still there might be some truth in here somewhere.
One of the things that clearly stands out for me is the inability to spend gas late game as I pointed out in some of my posts before. If both players would trade evenly all game long terran would end up losing when his side of the map is mined out of minerals with a big chunk of gas basically untouched.
Another thing that might be true is that the Protoss army isn't as difficult to micro and doesn't scale with better micro which is just bad game design. A Player should be rewarded for better micro and he should get punished for having bad micro. But it shouldn't be like that one player has his army on a move just watching the battle while the other one is microin his heart out.
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I really wonder when blizzard will nerf the ridicilous crono on upgrades. That is the most imbalanced thing atm about macro tvp. Toss can get 3-3 at 16:00 with cronoboost, and still be safe. I think there are 2 options:
- Make the time to get an upgrade done longer
- Make the upgrade more expensive.
As long as blizzard doesnt fix this, TvP lategame will be a complete joke.
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On March 26 2012 17:07 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Does Protoss get cheaper expansions?
Does Terran have to choose between making workers or units?
Do Zerg start with 75% of the map covered in creep, or is this even remotely easy to accomplish?
I don't really get what you're saying about supply blocking, if a Zerg doesn't make his overlords on time his macro goes to hell, larva stocked up has nothing to do with it.
That's exactly the point, if Terran throws down the required bunkers and pulls scvs he generally holds. Zerg players often lose to allins despite cutting drones, making units, and preparing defenses. They're too different things.
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I haven't argued that any of those factors are imbalanced, but the sheer number of differences makes the argument that Terrans are "outplaying" Protoss seem relatively absurd. With so many differences, how can you possibly know?
Maybe you've lost a lot to all ins a few too many times in whatever league you are, but at pro levels, that happens A LOT less. Also, no, there are so many factors to considering if a Terran can survive and actually have a chance at winning the game.
Arguably though, you could generally say that Terrans need quite a high level of micro and what not in TvP due to the nature of the low tier, fragile units that we use in the MU in contrast to the high aoe/health units that Protoss has. Of course, there is a lot to consider, like what 'outplaying' means.
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this really is just a balance whine thread, why is this continously being bumped?
dear mods, I thought TL was a place where these kinds of threads were discouraged, and closed almost on sight, you do excellent work every day banning trolls, flamers and the like and I respect you immensely for it.
but I do not see why this thread still lives, it does not seem to be constructive, it has degraded to a thread where:
"Race X can do Y that race Z cannot"
is the most common argument.
thats all I had to say.
have a nice day.
// sincerely
Roblin
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On March 26 2012 19:49 Roblin wrote:
this really is just a balance whine thread, why is this continously being bumped?
dear mods, I thought TL was a place where these kinds of threads were discouraged, and closed almost on sight, you do excellent work every day banning trolls, flamers and the like and I respect you immensely for it.
but I do not see why this thread still lives, it does not seem to be constructive, it has degraded to a thread where:
"Race X can do Y that race Z cannot"
is the most common argument.
thats all I had to say.
have a nice day.
// sincerely
Roblin
The way to deal with this is NOT to bump the said thread but to report it, or PM a mod, or write in website feedback.
I do agree that the last pages have become nonsense. It shouldn't be ok to post: "Race X has x better than race Y" That's bnet forum stuff, there. Either follow those comments up with analysis of where the low-tier terrans can make use of these mechanisms or don't post.
Some tens of pages back people were writing about either builds that low-tier terrans can do (Found them useful, although I still fail with them. Won't give up yet, though) or discussing tweaks that might improve balance at the low end but not at the top tier.
To contribute to the APM as a resource point. I do wonder whether MC is APM capped, though. And even if he is, would Puzzle be APM capped? He seems ludicrously fast. So I doubt APM requirements would change top-tier balance.
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EPT
