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On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion.
that's not an argument for you being right, it's an argument for people being terrible and not willing/wanting to get better enough to actually improve, which is a lot different than "they can't"
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On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap.
You are enormously underestimating the difficulty of Macro in Sc2.
I can take a Zerg's replay, look at his supply by the 8 minute mark, and tell you exactly where his macro is in relation to where it needs to be.
Macro is not done efficiently even at the high masters level, the vast majority of Terrans are not losing because of game difficulty, they're losing because they're bad at the game.
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On March 26 2012 13:48 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion. that's not an argument for you being right, it's an argument for people being terrible and not willing/wanting to get better enough to actually improve, which is a lot different than "they can't"
Nope. What makes you think Terrans who are disappearing from the ladder don't want to improve and get better? What makes you think they aren't trying to overcome the problems they face? Given the facts, his argument is as valid as yours, and I would argue that his is more realistic. Speaking for myself, I want to get better, but the situation seems hopeless given the amount of time I have to devote to this game. At some point, I want to just have fun on the ladder, and I know I don't have the amount of time necessary to reach the "next level" that everyone talks about, even if I try my damnedest, which I am. So what are my choices? Quit the game, switch races, keep on playing despite the lack of enjoyment I'm getting from the game and hold out hope that I'll improve to the point where the game is no longer demoralizing? I'll probably choose one of the first two if things don't change, and that will support the argument that you so easily dismiss.
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If you were in gold league in season 1, would you feel hopeless if you were in platinum now? What if you were in diamond in season 1 only by riding on a bad map pool and an imbalanced race, and ended up getting a little less successful as the race got brought into line?
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On March 26 2012 14:19 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 13:48 Angel_ wrote:On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:
[quote]
Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start...
He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion. that's not an argument for you being right, it's an argument for people being terrible and not willing/wanting to get better enough to actually improve, which is a lot different than "they can't" Nope. What makes you think Terrans who are disappearing from the ladder don't want to improve and get better? What makes you think they aren't trying to overcome the problems they face? Given the facts, his argument is as valid as yours, and I would argue that his is more realistic. Speaking for myself, I want to get better, but the situation seems hopeless given the amount of time I have to devote to this game. At some point, I want to just have fun on the ladder, and I know I don't have the amount of time necessary to reach the "next level" that everyone talks about, even if I try my damnedest, which I am. So what are my choices? Quit the game, switch races, keep on playing despite the lack of enjoyment I'm getting from the game and hold out hope that I'll improve to the point where the game is no longer demoralizing? I'll probably choose one of the first two if things don't change, and that will support the argument that you so easily dismiss.
Why do you think you should be playing against better players than you are right now? Why do you think that playing (and losing) games against higher players will be more rewarding?
Your MMR tries to keep you at a 50% w/l, it seems that you have a problem with Ladder, not with your race.
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On March 26 2012 14:31 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 14:19 riff wrote:On March 26 2012 13:48 Angel_ wrote:On March 26 2012 09:45 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:40 Blazinghand wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:
[quote]
He was trying to be cheeky.
Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread.
Just shun them and pretend they don't exist.
If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. I'm not entirely sure that your conclusion is accurate. Even sharing your assumptions (which I do not), I think you underestimate the difficulty of a race switch. Protoss and Zerg play fundamentally different from Terran. The amount of work it would take to really get good at another race, learn the units, compositions, build orders, anticheese, cheese, timing pushes, lategame stuff-- hell, even being able to eyeball an army or situation and know what the deal is-- is enormous. If you already offrace occasionally it might be easier, but for most players who never play outside of their chosen race, switching over to a race that has fundamental mechanical differences is enormously difficult. Difficult enough, perhaps, that it might be worth it to spend more time learning your own race. And yet Terrans are astonishingly absent (and seemingly still dwindling) from certain levels of play. The 2 most reasonable answers are either they completely stopped playing or that they switched race. Either one would be a symptom of my conclusion. that's not an argument for you being right, it's an argument for people being terrible and not willing/wanting to get better enough to actually improve, which is a lot different than "they can't" Nope. What makes you think Terrans who are disappearing from the ladder don't want to improve and get better? What makes you think they aren't trying to overcome the problems they face? Given the facts, his argument is as valid as yours, and I would argue that his is more realistic. Speaking for myself, I want to get better, but the situation seems hopeless given the amount of time I have to devote to this game. At some point, I want to just have fun on the ladder, and I know I don't have the amount of time necessary to reach the "next level" that everyone talks about, even if I try my damnedest, which I am. So what are my choices? Quit the game, switch races, keep on playing despite the lack of enjoyment I'm getting from the game and hold out hope that I'll improve to the point where the game is no longer demoralizing? I'll probably choose one of the first two if things don't change, and that will support the argument that you so easily dismiss. Why do you think you should be playing against better players than you are right now? Why do you think that playing (and losing) games against higher players will be more rewarding? Your MMR tries to keep you at a 50% w/l, it seems that you have a problem with Ladder, not with your race.
The ladder is fine, although as I suggested earlier, it would be nice if MMR could be separated out by matchup.
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On March 26 2012 14:09 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. You are enormously underestimating the difficulty of Macro in Sc2. I can take a Zerg's replay, look at his supply by the 8 minute mark, and tell you exactly where his macro is in relation to where it needs to be. Macro is not done efficiently even at the high masters level, the vast majority of Terrans are not losing because of game difficulty, they're losing because they're bad at the game.
And when we take a terran and a protoss who are both equally bad (or good), and shove them into a macro game, it is much more likely that the protoss will win. That is one of the silliest and most repeated arguments ever.
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating.
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On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 14:09 ThomasHobbes wrote:On March 26 2012 09:30 aksfjh wrote:On March 26 2012 09:07 allerion wrote:On March 26 2012 08:56 Horseballs wrote:On March 26 2012 08:50 HardlyNever wrote:On March 26 2012 08:30 NoctemSC wrote:On March 26 2012 08:24 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 26 2012 08:20 manloveman wrote:
Hey im bronze. My PvP is 100% but vs Terran its -8% procent. Please fix omfg.
So terrans, after over a year of being the top winrate race at pro level (where every terrans reply to this was: l2p noob toss). You now also want it to be the easiest race to play at low levels. Well I don't thing bronze players such as yourself should comment on balance or win-rates, building pylons and not getting supply-blocked would be a good start... He was trying to be cheeky. Please don't feed trolls like this, they offer nothing to the thread. Just shun them and pretend they don't exist. If he had an actual argument rather than "lol terran whiners" I'd take him more seriously. He actually has a great argument. When you are at the level where you could still improve on everything (i.e. every terran in this thread), the answer is to get better, not sit here and whine that terran is too hard to play. No one cares. Blizzard isn't going to buff the race when it is still dominant at the top level of play. Get better, switch races, or quit playing. Those are your options. The thing is that it isn't good for the health of the game if an overwhelming amount of terrans switch races or flat out quit playing. And it isn't so simple as just "get better," as is demonstrated over and over in this thread; it seems to be the case that "getting" better is easier to do up to a certain point with the races other than terran. At the end of the day I don't care about e-sports, I don't care about high-level balance when it is a chore to play the game that is supposed to be recreation. So your argument as to why you dont want to put in the effort to get better is that you play casually, so blizzard should make it easier for you. its attitudes like yours that are the reasons games today are as easy as they are "Get better" was a good phrase for BW. The amount of skill it took to straight up play the game was so enormous that you could look at a game as short as 8 minutes and clearly see where your macro was slipping. The strategical and tactical side of the game took a back seat most of the time to straight up macro and micro differences, and those problems were clear as day when you looked back at your games. For SC2, it's not like that. It's really easy to hit a point where you can't actually SEE where you went wrong, or where your mistakes are so subtle or mirrored moreso in your opponent that even identifying them seems inconsequential. Since the macro and micro are so much easier, racial strengths flaunt themselves in so many strategies and tactics. It brings that "invisible" skill to the forefront, to the point that, in many cases, you can't even look to pros for inspiration and/or advice. "Get better" in the realm of SC2 is much more of an insult and a cop out to the larger problem that this game faces: there are gigantic skill gaps between races at certain levels that are more easily overcome by switching races than overcoming the gap. You are enormously underestimating the difficulty of Macro in Sc2. I can take a Zerg's replay, look at his supply by the 8 minute mark, and tell you exactly where his macro is in relation to where it needs to be. Macro is not done efficiently even at the high masters level, the vast majority of Terrans are not losing because of game difficulty, they're losing because they're bad at the game. And when we take a terran and a protoss who are both equally bad (or good), and shove them into a macro game, it is much more likely that the protoss will win. That is one of the silliest and most repeated arguments ever. Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating.
What is playing better than someone else?
As Zerg, I don't have the luxury of making mistakes. I don't get mules when I'm low on minerals, I don't get call-down supply if I forget to build overlords, I don't get instant scouting if I'm not sure what to do, I don't get to lift my buildings and fly away if I make an unsafe expansion, I don't have access to allins that, even if scouted, are still very difficult to hold.
That isn't to say that any of those things are imbalanced, but that's the point. You're arbitrarily deciding that you play better than your opponents. Why? According to what measure of "good"?
Similarly, you can beat a Terran all game long, but if he manages to scrape just one more expansion, he can continue the game. Is this imbalanced? Should we nerf Terran?
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Imagine a scenario where SC2 is truely as fun, diverse, and cool as BW. What if TvP or any other matchup is completely balanced and great in pro play, yet very lopsided at lower levels. Would you still complain?
To me it's more important that they balance the game for the best instead of for the average player. I admit that terran mech is not very good and hopefully it becomes more viable in HotS, but to change stuff now for lower level players might mean big changes to high level play. Some of the suggested changes in this thread are plain stupid (remove warpgate, remove forcefield) and some are more constructive yet totally untested and very unpredictable (manual charge, manual split, increased warpin time).
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On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating.
And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit.
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LOL. Dear karpo, in the BW you claimed you found fun, diverse and cool there were no warpgates and no forcefields. Yet you somehow can't imagine SC2 without them.
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On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit.
Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race.
With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league.
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On March 26 2012 16:18 Kakaru2 wrote:
LOL. Dear karpo, in the BW you claimed you found fun, diverse and cool there were no warpgates and no forcefields. Yet you somehow can't imagine SC2 without them.
LOL back at ya.
I'm saying that removing warpgates and forcefields now would be stupid and fuck up both balance and the metagame really hard. They might be able to do it for HotS but it's still something that will require alot of rebalancing if they do.
You really should learn to read. The question what that even if SC2 was more diverse and "balanced" at the top level, would terrans still complain if they had a tough time in the matchup at lower levels? It has nothing to do with SC2 being exactly like BW.
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On March 26 2012 16:21 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit. Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race. With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league.
Really melodramatic. 2.4% decrease in proportion to the other races over something like a year. With this trend, I guess it's really going to be a game of 2races. In 15years.
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On March 26 2012 16:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:21 Krejven wrote:On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit. Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race. With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league. Really melodramatic. 2.4% decrease in proportion to the other races over something like a year. With this trend, I guess it's really going to be a game of 2races. In 15years.
But that's just sc2ranks statistics. You gotta understand that terrans everywhere have stopped playing after their first few matches this patch and that skews the results. How do we know this? Because this thread filled with terrans claim they meet about 2-3 terrans for every 20-30 matches. 
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On March 26 2012 16:21 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit. Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race. With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league.
even medivacs got nerfed! (their speed)
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It's funny - when zerg/toss QQ, the statistics usually show that they are really struggling in a certain matchup. When terrans QQ the statistics only show that they are not that dominant any more. Worst case scenario is, that they have a slightly below 50% win-rate.
I don't really know why people keep beating the dead horse that terran needs more skill to play. Because this is exactly what has been said at release about zerg, since zerg-macro is much more demanding to get used to because you either figure out your larva-timings or you just die vs random pressure. Later this is what has been said about toss: you either learn how to force field properly or lose vs a-moved bio or roaches. The ghost vs templar-battles are still in favour of terrans, because terrans don't have to worry about splitting ghosts - feedback isn't an aoe after all. Also you don't have to worry about cloaked templars casting storms. If your opponent splits his templars perfectly, then maybe he was just better? Because, let's be honest about this, there are VERY few pro-gamers (!) out there who have great HT control.
At the lower levels, players have horrible drop-defense and horrible force-fields. Normally all it takes is a small poke at the ramp while dropping two places simultaneously - I have a SILVER (!) friend who can do this, he just has horrible macro and can't back it up.
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On March 26 2012 16:32 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:30 Big J wrote:On March 26 2012 16:21 Krejven wrote:On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit. Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race. With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league. Really melodramatic. 2.4% decrease in proportion to the other races over something like a year. With this trend, I guess it's really going to be a game of 2races. In 15years. But that's just sc2ranks statistics. You gotta understand that terrans everywhere have stopped playing after their first few matches this patch and that skews the results. How do we know this? Because this thread filled with terrans claim they meet about 2-3 terrans for every 20-30 matches.
oh sorry, I forgot about all the data already collected in overall statistics and objective surveys of a representative group for the whole SC2-gaming community by this thread.
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One thing that has been kinda overlooked by Protoss/zerg players in this thread is the lack of good foreign terrans. The two highest placing foreign terrans were KawaiiRice/Demuslim who both finished around 24th place. And then you have players like SaSe, Ret, Huk, Haypro, Naniwa who all finish at least top 16. This happens in almost every tournament with both Koreans and foreigners present. Are foreign protosses/zergs just better than the terrans? Do they practice harder? This just shows there's a HUGE gap, not only between ladder terrans + pros, but with foreign terrans and korean terrans. The last major tournament won by a foreign Terran was TSL3, almost a full year ago. Kinda ridiculous isn't it?
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On March 26 2012 16:37 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 16:21 Krejven wrote:On March 26 2012 15:43 Vaporak wrote:On March 26 2012 14:57 Active.815 wrote:
Losing to better players is fine. But losing to someone who made more mistakes than you but can crutch his way through the game because as soon as he survives to get 3-3-3 chargelot/archon his units take forever to kill and warpgates allow for much quicker reinforcements is very frustrating. And scrub Protoss players will complain that 1a'd stim MM shits all over T1 gateway comps and point out that every game has an early and mid game but not all games have a lategame. It's an asymmetric RTS, the races are going to play differently at basically all times, deal with it or quit. Which is exactly what people are doing. Is there something you missed when they named the thread "Where did all the terrans go?"? Clearly people can not be arsed to deal with it, thus you got a game which will end with two races. Personally I would hate for it to end that way but Blizzard constant nerfs to everything that aint marine marauder medivac made me sick of playing the race. With the new mech units in HotS I will most likely go back to terran but until then I enjoy outplaying people with zerg or 4 gate my way to master league. even medivacs got nerfed! (their speed)
lol yeah it was totally cool when they could outrun stalkers....
when select doesnt lose a TvP in 4500 matches going 2 rax port 1 base lolol
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EPT
