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On March 26 2012 19:58 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 19:49 Roblin wrote:
this really is just a balance whine thread, why is this continously being bumped?
dear mods, I thought TL was a place where these kinds of threads were discouraged, and closed almost on sight, you do excellent work every day banning trolls, flamers and the like and I respect you immensely for it.
but I do not see why this thread still lives, it does not seem to be constructive, it has degraded to a thread where:
"Race X can do Y that race Z cannot"
is the most common argument.
thats all I had to say.
have a nice day.
// sincerely
Roblin The way to deal with this is NOT to bump the said thread but to report it, or PM a mod, or write in website feedback. I do agree that the last pages have become nonsense. It shouldn't be ok to post: "Race X has x better than race Y" That's bnet forum stuff, there. Either follow those comments up with analysis of where the low-tier terrans can make use of these mechanisms or don't post. Some tens of pages back people were writing about either builds that low-tier terrans can do (Found them useful, although I still fail with them. Won't give up yet, though) or discussing tweaks that might improve balance at the low end but not at the top tier. To contribute to the APM as a resource point. I do wonder whether MC is APM capped, though. And even if he is, would Puzzle be APM capped? He seems ludicrously fast. So I doubt APM requirements would change top-tier balance.
That is MKP talent, is that he is able to take the efficiency of terran units to the max. Especially against melees units, which are limited in how efficient and effective they can be. This is why he is immune to banelings. But he also has really good decision making on what fights he can win with a set number of units.
In the case of MC, I don't know how many repeatable actions protoss have to that are effective. The closest anyone gets is maybe blink stalker micro, but that is more about a controls action and being aware blink cooldown for a specific set of stalkers. Protoss is more about a single action or set of actions that have to be done at a set time to gain an advantage in a fight. If you fail those actions, you commonly lose the fight or game.
Still, there will be the argument that more APM means that the race is harder. I don't necessarily agree, since APM is not a measurement of how hard an action is, just how often you can repeat an action. Making sure a fight takes place on a part of the map where forcefields are effective is hard as well. I don't think it has the same number of actions as stutter stepping, but it has its own set of mental requirements to assure the player does not lose.
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On March 26 2012 19:49 Roblin wrote:
this really is just a balance whine thread, why is this continously being bumped?
dear mods, I thought TL was a place where these kinds of threads were discouraged, and closed almost on sight, you do excellent work every day banning trolls, flamers and the like and I respect you immensely for it.
but I do not see why this thread still lives, it does not seem to be constructive, it has degraded to a thread where:
"Race X can do Y that race Z cannot"
is the most common argument.
thats all I had to say.
have a nice day.
// sincerely
Roblin
Ofc. it is a "balance whine" thread.
Funny how every thread about problems with playing terran always ends up in the same way: complaining about TvP.
Why is that you think?
How is this game gonna take Brood war's position when terran players from bronze-pro level unanimously agree that TvP is a horrible , stupid and broken matchup. In some sense of the word you can ofc call it balanced, but that is not the point.
If you don't believe me, go watch any terran stream and feel the frustration experienced with the TvP matchup.
Not many pro's complain about TvZ or TvT on their streams...
The game has to reward skill. As of now, the skill required to be a master-ish protoss is way lower than reaching the same ladder ranking as terran (in particular) or zerg.
The frustration expressed in this thread should not be taken lightly. Calling for mods to shut it down is just outright ignorant.
The current situation is that a lot of terran players have found themselves in a situation where, even after months of playing on the ladder, their gained skill has not payed off cos of reckless patching from blizzard resulting in protoss and zerg players abusing the crap out of the situation.
Many of us thought that the ghost emp nerf was the last big nerf to be made.
It was very disheartening with the ridiculous snipe nerf that fixed the "slightly too strong against zerg T3**" snipe ability by a 50% damage reduction to ALL units. In its currrent state you cannot even snipe a zergling. In fact, i highly doubt that the micro needed to snipe any light unit is worth it because the DPS of the standard attack is almost as high.
But still, the game might still be balanced, albeit slightly more retarded...
Now, not only do we have to face protosses who turtle on 3 bases while chonoboosting upgrades and massing up a deathball, but also zerg players who abuse mass ling into hive rush strategies that are extremely hard to stop compared to how easy they are to pull off.
While protoss has been buffed to make both robo-tech and templar-tech viable in PvT, terran has gotten their alternative mech route nerfed into oblivion.
The Thor was nerfed back to its orignal state after ONE game on pro-level where ThorZain was owning up MC.
The blue flame hellion nerf , ghost emp radius nerf and immortal buff have made mech significantly weaker.
Ironically enough, mech would be more viable if the ghost emp radius was higher and the energy drain was 100%.
At least then you could emp your thors and BCs without needing 10 emps, lol.
The point is that now both TvP and TvZ feels like uphill battles from the second the game starts.
All we want is a game that is balanced and fair and not retarded.
Right now the game is maybe balanced, but very retarded and certainly not fair.
** Quote from David Kim himself.
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On March 26 2012 20:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 19:58 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 19:49 Roblin wrote:
this really is just a balance whine thread, why is this continously being bumped?
dear mods, I thought TL was a place where these kinds of threads were discouraged, and closed almost on sight, you do excellent work every day banning trolls, flamers and the like and I respect you immensely for it.
but I do not see why this thread still lives, it does not seem to be constructive, it has degraded to a thread where:
"Race X can do Y that race Z cannot"
is the most common argument.
thats all I had to say.
have a nice day.
// sincerely
Roblin The way to deal with this is NOT to bump the said thread but to report it, or PM a mod, or write in website feedback. I do agree that the last pages have become nonsense. It shouldn't be ok to post: "Race X has x better than race Y" That's bnet forum stuff, there. Either follow those comments up with analysis of where the low-tier terrans can make use of these mechanisms or don't post. Some tens of pages back people were writing about either builds that low-tier terrans can do (Found them useful, although I still fail with them. Won't give up yet, though) or discussing tweaks that might improve balance at the low end but not at the top tier. To contribute to the APM as a resource point. I do wonder whether MC is APM capped, though. And even if he is, would Puzzle be APM capped? He seems ludicrously fast. So I doubt APM requirements would change top-tier balance. That is MKP talent, is that he is able to take the efficiency of terran units to the max. Especially against melees units, which are limited in how efficient and effective they can be. This is why he is immune to banelings. But he also has really good decision making on what fights he can win with a set number of units. In the case of MC, I don't know how many repeatable actions protoss have to that are effective. The closest anyone gets is maybe blink stalker micro, but that is more about a controls action and being aware blink cooldown for a specific set of stalkers. Protoss is more about a single action or set of actions that have to be done at a set time to gain an advantage in a fight. If you fail those actions, you commonly lose the fight or game. Still, there will be the argument that more APM means that the race is harder. I don't necessarily agree, since APM is not a measurement of how hard an action is, just how often you can repeat an action. Making sure a fight takes place on a part of the map where forcefields are effective is hard as well. I don't think it has the same number of actions as stutter stepping, but it has its own set of mental requirements to assure the player does not lose.
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc.
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On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc.
Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game.
Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too.
Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum.
What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like:
a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing
b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs
c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets
I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations.
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On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations.
What a helpful post /sarcasm
Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games.
Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y.
Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally.
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On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally.
Good summary. Section 3 also applies to some frequent posters in this thread.
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On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally.
I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around.
TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come.
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saying t problems shouldnt be addressed cause other races had to suffer is such a retarded arguement that im posting with my phone and shitty tactile keyboard to call you out. news flash, not everyone has been playing t since the beginning. in fact, i played p and random for the majority of my sc career; i never played when t ws considered op. i chose them cause i found them more fun to play. now, the matchups are ridiculous and 'i should suffer'. fuck you
User was warned for this post
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On March 26 2012 22:05 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally. I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around. TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come.
let's analyze your post according to the model above.
Idea 1: Terran hasn't suffered enough.
Idea 2: Terran is balanced all round but you luck a hero to come and invent a new build order. Game is fine but you don't know yet how to play it.
Idea 3: Repeat of idea 1. Suffer more! "You will suffer, as I have suffered."
I only have to say that this terran ordeal started after the last 2 patches by blizzard. No one here defended the reaper or stim nerf and said they were not required. No one here said that the game isn't properly balanced for the first 15 minutes.
Is what happens after the first 15 minutes that upsets a lot of Terran players and make them not play anymore. The utter lack of any viable T3 (bad design).
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On March 26 2012 22:05 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally. I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around. TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come.
You are mad!
We want balanced esports for all races. Not fixing terran would go against that point for having a balanced, fun and exciting game that all the tournament and/or stream watchers want. We shouldn't care about past suffering of races if we are aiming for a balanced game since it has nothing to do with it.
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On March 26 2012 23:05 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 22:05 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally. I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around. TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come. You are mad! We want balanced esports for all races. Not fixing terran would go against that point for having a balanced, fun and exciting game that all the tournament and/or stream watchers want. We shouldn't care about past suffering of races if we are aiming for a balanced game since it has nothing to do with it.
All the races are pretty well balanced though. At the top level of play that is. This kinda makes it a bigger problem than people realize. They're all looking to the major tournaments to substantiate claims in this thread, when a great deal of the problems are only occurring at specific levels of play. Detractors see things like + Show Spoiler + and quickly join in to a completely different discussion to tell us the "good news." Overzealous Terrans come in here pointing out that engagement 16 minutes into the pro TvP match where somebody wins/losses, but, in reality, won/lost long before.
Pro level play isn't the problem. There is a substantial chunk of the player base that doesn't feel they can play SC2 as Terran and enjoy the game at the same time. This has little bearing on whether T can win against P or Z in the next major tournament, but has longterm repercussions for the survivability of the game. If SC2 becomes virtually T-less at certain levels of play, the game itself will lose all credibility to those that have to go through that.
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SC2gears says 62% of my matches in masters are PvZ this season. 62 PERCENT! And we're talking about 300+ games this season, not a small sampling size Anyone else getting A LOT of zergs on ladder?
Yes, I've noticed a lot less Terrans this season.
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Where are all the terrans ? At the finals check the brackets.
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On March 27 2012 00:13 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 23:05 Mehukannu wrote:On March 26 2012 22:05 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally. I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around. TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come. You are mad! We want balanced esports for all races. Not fixing terran would go against that point for having a balanced, fun and exciting game that all the tournament and/or stream watchers want. We shouldn't care about past suffering of races if we are aiming for a balanced game since it has nothing to do with it. All the races are pretty well balanced though. At the top level of play that is. This kinda makes it a bigger problem than people realize. They're all looking to the major tournaments to substantiate claims in this thread, when a great deal of the problems are only occurring at specific levels of play. Detractors see things like + Show Spoiler + and quickly join in to a completely different discussion to tell us the "good news." Overzealous Terrans come in here pointing out that engagement 16 minutes into the pro TvP match where somebody wins/losses, but, in reality, won/lost long before. Pro level play isn't the problem. There is a substantial chunk of the player base that doesn't feel they can play SC2 as Terran and enjoy the game at the same time. This has little bearing on whether T can win against P or Z in the next major tournament, but has longterm repercussions for the survivability of the game. If SC2 becomes virtually T-less at certain levels of play, the game itself will lose all credibility to those that have to go through that.
While the races might be balanced in win/loss -ratio, it still doesn't mean that the match-up isn't fundamentally screwed. I mean really, how long has terran players gone for MMMVG in PvT? Pretty much all they from the beta. There has been zero ''meta-game'' change for terran in that match-up that's outside all ins of course (not sure if I even should count them since they are by all means a coin throw). That match-up could use a lot more variety than it does now, just for the sake of the watchers and the players.
I think it should also be noted that the game was wrongly balanced upon the really bad maps we had back then. Think 50 damage siege tanks in Steppes of War. One tank could cover yours and the enemies natural ramp at the same time. I am not implying that the changes should be reverted since the maps we have now are balanced around those changes, so doing to that would seriously screw up the game balance.
As for waiting for the expansions, how long are we actually going to wait for one to come to fix the problems WoL has now and seeing how blizzard always wants to make quality games I don't see it coming anytime soon. <_<
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On March 26 2012 05:07 eFonSG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 04:56 CyDe wrote:
To all the people saying that Terran is balanced at the higher levels and it doesn't matter that lower league players are having troubles:
A) Fuck you. We want to have fun as well.
B) It does matter. You do realize that this game will die out if the vast majority of people cannot play a race to become good enough as the pros? After the current pros go, there will be no more Terrans since they will never get the chance to learn the race at the lower levels to move up onto the higher levels. It really does matter, and everyone, including those who don't play terran should be concerned as well. If I saw a race like Protoss or Zerg begin to disappear I would be troubled. Yeah because this is completely logical and in no way hyperbole? I know PLENTY of terrans who enjoy themselves in diamond/masters/GM. Just because YOU cant do something, doesnt mean that everyone cannot. Dude if the way for you to have fun in this game is to win, then get fucking better. Terran win-rates go up and up as you get to higher and higher levels. Clearly its not easy, but no race is no matter what want to think. To say that all the terrans are going to disappear is funny, hyperbolic, illogical, and not worth anymore response than this.
When I said that terrans were going to disappear I did not mean that they were all going to completely stop being on ladder. I was using a phrase, something someone of your alleged intelligence would usually realize.
And if you are going to say that you can have a fun game when you are struggling beyond belief just to stay in it is funny. I don't remember zerg players saying they were having fun about a year and a half ago...
And it is certainly not hyperbolic. Let's think about it. Once the current pros retire and then the next set of pros retire, who will come into fruition as pros? The people who have been working their way up from the lower leagues. If the game continues as it is, where it is difficult to "get better" due to the ridiculous constraints of a race, there won't be much of lower leagues to speak of. So who is there to get better?
It may take longer than what is really practical for that to happen, and I'm sure things will change between that time and now, but I am speaking as though the current state of the game is kept.
Have fun not responding.
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On March 27 2012 00:44 Severus_ wrote:
Where are all the terrans ? At the finals check the brackets.
this stopped being funny like 140 pages ago
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On March 27 2012 00:13 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 23:05 Mehukannu wrote:On March 26 2012 22:05 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:45 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:On March 26 2012 21:10 Big J wrote:
I'm not sure if this is really what makes MKP strong. His micro is great, probably the best in all of SC2, but I don't think the little bit that he is better than other great Terrans matters that much. What I think he does the best, is fake you into believing he is allinning you, while he nearly always has a superfast 3rd going up and never stops expanding. And the first time you get defensive, he is just walking up and down the map and waiting for his opponent to give him an opportunity to kill him. And if he doesn't get that, it's OK because his real strenghts are the economy builds that wait behind the micro.
A lot of other (pro) Terrans often seem to play with a "do or die"-mentality, once they are out on the map. They build up a timing, and they commit to that timing and afterwards try to adapt to the new situation, while MKP just seems to play with whatever he has at that moment.
I think his genius is not that he does anything better than others, but that he plays Terran more fragile and does not fear to show his hand, but rather forces the opponent to show his. Something that other Terrans fear to do, whenever they play a noncommital strategy.
I would really love to see some "focus" analysis of him; where he looks, where his army has been walking the most on a map etc. Very well said - the true strength of MKP really is his decisionmaking. I mean, if you take micro alone, you could even say that players like Select are nearly on the same level...his multiple drop control and load/unload-micro is pretty sick. But then he just dies because he overextends at some random point during the game. Also it cannot be a coincidence that Goody was so ridiculously strong during a certain time even though his macro was terrible. He got supply-blocked constantly and had multiple units queued up all the time because he didn't hotkey buildings but clicked on them in order to produce stuff. But he really knew what he was doing too. Just think about the games of MKP where he did the 2-2-2 build. Not only was it flawless execution, but the mindgames that lead to the build and the way he decided to move out with certain groups at certain times was brilliant. He really uses the terran strength to the maximum. What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like: a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets I'm not saying that terran shouldn't have these advantages: but it's really essential to realize, that something "has" to be harder to even this out. I mean, if terrans were globally in a slump - like protoss-players were some months ago - we could start discussing things. But right now, terran is only starting to experience what it's like to not be the strongest race for once. And yes, it doesn't feel good if you lose even if you think you did everything right. If this makes terran-players quit their race, then I'm not feeling sorry for them at all. After all the hard times zerg and protoss-players had to go through, it's not uncalled for that terrans for once have to think about how they approach certain gameplay-situations. What a helpful post /sarcasm Section 1: Tiny point of analysis on MKP playing mind games. Section 2: bnet forum worthy: Race X has mechanism x, which is better than mechanism y of Race Y. Section 3: Z and P suffered, so don't improve matters until Terran players have suffered equally. I have followed RTS-esports for a REALLY long time, and the timespan of terran suffering isn't nearly enough to even start discussing anything at all. The best example would probably be orc in warcraft 3 (my race as well): orc was considered a mediocre race for YEARS; even though grubby was really good, everybody else struggled. Then something magical happened: orc realized that it might be a good idea to not start with the farseer but with the blademaster. And suddenly everything changed - orc became super-strong basicly overnight. All those years of QQ about the slow-spell, the devourers, mass talon-druids and whatnot....and all it took was a good player figuring out a different style of play to turn everything around. TL;DR: stop the annoying crying, try to use the advantages the race offers and - most importantly - GIVE IT TIME. Hell, we even have two expansions yet to come. You are mad! We want balanced esports for all races. Not fixing terran would go against that point for having a balanced, fun and exciting game that all the tournament and/or stream watchers want. We shouldn't care about past suffering of races if we are aiming for a balanced game since it has nothing to do with it. All the races are pretty well balanced though. At the top level of play that is. This kinda makes it a bigger problem than people realize. They're all looking to the major tournaments to substantiate claims in this thread, when a great deal of the problems are only occurring at specific levels of play. Detractors see things like + Show Spoiler + and quickly join in to a completely different discussion to tell us the "good news." Overzealous Terrans come in here pointing out that engagement 16 minutes into the pro TvP match where somebody wins/losses, but, in reality, won/lost long before. Pro level play isn't the problem. There is a substantial chunk of the player base that doesn't feel they can play SC2 as Terran and enjoy the game at the same time. This has little bearing on whether T can win against P or Z in the next major tournament, but has longterm repercussions for the survivability of the game. If SC2 becomes virtually T-less at certain levels of play, the game itself will lose all credibility to those that have to go through that.
Well, but step one to that discussion would be to get useful data, at which level Terrans struggle.
The only somewhat conclusive evidence I have seen until now is, that around gold to diamond level the Terran population is too low, compared to the other levels of play and to the Protoss/Zerg population (which are pretty stable all across the leagues, apart from superlowlevel Zerg)
So in my opinion the only discussable thing until now is, what makes Terran around platinum level struggle, that doesn't bother the players in lower leagues and that higher league people seem to have overcome.
(and I think blizzard stated that as well, that Terran suffers at those midlevels especially against Zerg and somewhat against Protoss or something like that; can't find the statement right now)
For the "feeling" of the players; I don't know, but for me this sounds like a psychological effect. Everyone thinks that he/she is a good player at a certain point in time and should be able to beat his opponents. MMR-matchmaking makes it so, that you only get opponents that you should be able to beat if you play well, and you always get the feeling that you played well, as he won't be way better. And thus people get frustrated and start to blame each and everything/one, but themselves when they lose. Add to that, that even on prolevel Terrans struggle against Protoss lategame and we are in a discussion in which people project what they see from their idols on similar situations they face. And instead of questioning their play ("macro better"), they look at what makes strong-vs-Protoss - MKP look more impressive in this MU than struggling-vs-Protoss - foreigner and come to the conclusion that micro is the key. While this might be true on the observed (high) level, this has absolutly nothing to do with what our friend "random platinum Terran" would need to improve upon, to beat "random platinum Protoss", that crushed him last game with fifteen Colossi.
Of course there could be more behind this (you really only have 30% winrate against race X), but we have neither (nonpro) stats, nor does it seem plausible, because f.e. a general 70% PvT winrate in Masters, would mean that there is a general 70% TvZ winrate which means there is a general 70% PvZ winrate and therefore we should have more whining from all races currently about badly designed MUs all around (not that I think we have too little of it), and though it would still suck for Terran against Protoss, the situation would be not any brighter for the other races.
The only other possibilities would be, that Terrans would rapidly drop out of Masters (once you are under 50% winrate for a longer periode of time this happens rather fast), which simply isn't the case. The Terran decrease is there, but it is happening way too slow, at least in my opinion for this to be true across all levels. (though it could be somewhat true in platinum with 5percent since patch 1.2.0)
Also the theory of Terrans being inactive and therefore their MMR dropping more slowly than it would if they played (and lost) does not hold: sc2ranks.com gives you the average points of a player of a race and all across the leagues and continents, I have not seen any level on which the placed Terran players would have significantly less points than their Z/P counterparts, which would be the case if the theory would be true.
And yes, I do believe that the MUs are assymetrically balanced. (which somewhat sucks, but somewhat also makes the MUs good, as in a "perfect 50-50 regardless of the gameplan and composition"-world based on defenders advantages, games could turn out to become very stale, very soon; also I'm a believer that this is somewhat intentional for biocompositions and Mech compositions should work way better in the lategame; they just do not seem very viable in highlevel PvT and are not being very popular in TvZ, due to Progamer's not using them regularily)
And yes, I think certain Terran Units and styles should get patched (my priority list for future patches designwise would be 1) viability of Terran Mech or Skymech vs Protoss; 2) Zerg range compositions; 3) Protoss Air and probably less reliance="strenght of mass warpgatetimings"), but I don't see those problems being related in any way to "underpowerdness" or "noobunfriendlyness". For all I know, at the time when everyone was a noob, Terrans were performing better than they are now.
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They should implement a kind of MMR per matchup.
This would make ladder more enjoyable in case you have a matchup that you simply can't win at your current MMR. And Blizzard could collect the data to improve balance by noticing global MMR discrepancies per matchup.
That, and obviously, they implement a ladder rank per race. I would love to offrace :D
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On March 27 2012 00:42 whoopadeedoo wrote:
SC2gears says 62% of my matches in masters are PvZ this season. 62 PERCENT! And we're talking about 300+ games this season, not a small sampling size Anyone else getting A LOT of zergs on ladder?
Yes, I've noticed a lot less Terrans this season.
42P 38Z 18T in this season (randoms divided into the race they got.)
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On March 27 2012 02:05 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 00:42 whoopadeedoo wrote:
SC2gears says 62% of my matches in masters are PvZ this season. 62 PERCENT! And we're talking about 300+ games this season, not a small sampling size Anyone else getting A LOT of zergs on ladder?
Yes, I've noticed a lot less Terrans this season. 42P 38Z 18T in this season (randoms divided into the race they got.)
What race do you play (Terran, right)? It makes me wonder if the MM system intentionally avoids mirror matches when possible.
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EPT
