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When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too.
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On March 27 2012 05:29 zEnVy wrote:
P.S: I play all 3 races at a platinum level.
I don't know what platinum is like now, but when I was in it, I could win through macroing and a moving, and just having more stuff. It didn't really matter what units I made, I just had twice what everybody else had. As protoss, I would go chargelot immortal in pvt with late upgrades, and terrans would lose because they didnt have stuff. So Im guessing all that extra crap youre doing is getting in the way of your macro, hence having any problem in platinum at all...
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On March 27 2012 04:11 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 03:44 LavaLava wrote:On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:
What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like:
a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing
b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs
c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets
What I hate about this QQ is that it's the same rehashed bullshit from the Beta days. a) The fact that Mules are less of a burden to the player's macro routine than Inject, is completely good design, because Terran players have to spend a lot of time continually placing Supply Depots, which is more of a burden than Overlords. Plus, overlords being late hardly even matters because Larva is preserved. The one hatch-larva you might lose to a supply block is about as bad as forgetting your mule for 15 seconds and not having the minerals you needed. Each race has one thing it has to keep up with and another that it can play a little loose with, but realistically shouldn't. The Mule-Inject-Overlord-Depot-Larva circle makes the whole thing VERY even. b) Liftable supply depots are incredibly necessary because of a few factors: Marines make for a shitty zealot wall, Tech Labs cancel research if you want to lift rax, and Terran units are made of paper so ling runbys are far worse for a Terran. You see a lot more ling runbys vs Protoss but that's okay because Zealots actually beat Lings in a proper melee, while exposed Marines usually die. Supply depots are an absolute lifeline and require a lot of attention. Honestly it's not much less work than hold positioning your Zealot. Saying Terran walls are unrushable is nonsense, especially when walls are quite far away from mineral lines, and you can't just keep a shitload of SCVs there waiting to repair, or you'll die. You can also mineral walk through a zealot but not a supply depot, so if you want to saturate your main and then rally both OCs to your natural you need to constantly watch for lings. c) I would trade cannons or spines for planetaries any day. They fuck up your economy, cost gas, and aren't even that strong in the late game. To your other point, you obviously haven't played Terran, because establishing bases is a bitch. that's why the game has been balanced with the assumption that Zerg is one base ahead- it's that much easier to defend expansions with speedlings than it is with marines. Both the Orbital and the Planetary upgrades are balance bad-aids. In conclusion, none of these things actually represent some kind of ease of Terran play. I have to disagree with a few things here. As someone who plays both T and Z in mid-master, I'm one of those who thinks Terran's macro mechanics are easier. I'm willing to accept that it might come down to personal preference, or even my own playstyle; but I really do believe it is.
Terran macro is easy early game, granted, but late game, it gets really hard. Both Z and P counter parts only need one additional building (Z has high mobility with hatches all across the map whereas P can warp-in from Warpgates all across the map). T doesn't have that late game luxury.
I think that's the main difference. As P and Z are a lot better at holding 1-2 base aggression (and taking the game to late game), we've been seeing a lot less T. Terran shines in the early game (so many viable openings, etc.).
P.S. : You guys are missing the point if you're comparing macro mechanics early game. Its at the 200/200 supply that it becomes ridiculously harder (not macroing, but reinforcing the army; macroing was never the problem). As pointed by beastyqt, try microing 3 control groups and macroing. You stop macroing for an instant, you don't have instant supply (vs hatch/warpgates).
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On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too.
So why exactly is Zerg macro harder than Protoss? Protoss nearly has to do everything Terran has to do the same way. I don't really get how Protoss is so much easier in your mind than,
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On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too.
Your post is confusing. You list all the attributes that make Zerg macro easier then Terran macro, then you go on to say that Zerg macro is harder then Toss macro even though your description of Terran macro "challenges" is essentially the same as Toss'. What the ...
All you had to say was: My race requires more skill. That's what all you Terrans are trying to say anyhow.
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On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too.
While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject.
If a terran forgets to build a supply depot or build detection he has a scan/supply drop to fall back on, while a Zerg can produce overlords with just hotkeys it does require you to actually wait for the overlord to finish, which can easily cost you the game. your minimap larva inject point is entirely moot, no one uses this method, it's ridiculously ineffective and prone to error.
The fact is different races work in different ways, each macro method has it's own good and bad sides, I don't think you're ever going to get anywhere making blanket statements like "zerg macro is significantly easier than terran and alot more forgiving".
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RIP  PokeBunny.... we've lost another
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On March 27 2012 05:58 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Let's get one thing straight here, Terran players. Every race has to react or die.
The problem might be that MMM is too good. MMM is pretty much the most univerally useful unit composition in the game, so you guys go nothing but MMM and the other races know this is coming. This is what other races are reacting to (or else we die). As a Toss player, I can tell you that when Terran mixes it up, it presents much more of a challenge for me than if you just went standard bio. Every Terran and their mom goes bio, so everyone knows how to play against it.
Maybe Terran late game units needs a little tweaking. But please stop it with the "Terran has to react or die" BS.
Well terran doesnt really have any other composition that is viable all game than MMM.
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On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject. If a terran forgets to build a supply depot or build detection he has a scan/supply drop to fall back on, while a Zerg can produce overlords with just hotkeys it does require you to actually wait for the overlord to finish, which can easily cost you the game. your minimap larva inject point is entirely moot, no one uses this method, it's ridiculously ineffective and prone to error. The fact is different races work in different ways, each macro method has it's own good and bad sides, I don't think you're ever going to get anywhere making blanket statements like "zerg macro is significantly easier than terran and alot more forgiving".
What you just said makes zero sense. You claim that "larva stacking" is not more forgiving than queueing up units. Pure logic however should tell you that stacking larva doesn't hurt your macro at all, in no way shape or form. Whereas queuing units actually hurts your macro in many ways, you don't only have less units than you could have, you also have less money than you could have. That argument is actually redundant because you are essentially comparing something which affects you negatively to something which doesn't affect you negatively at all.
On the topic of mules.. if you don't mule consistently it actually does hurt you because you will end up with less minerals than you could have, the fact that you get the minerals "later" doesn't really matter, because I could argue in the exact same way that missing a larva inject just means that you get the units "later". And minerals/income and unit production are directly related anyway, so I don't see how you can even make this argument because it basically contradicts itself.
And a terran doesn't "forget" to build detection. Terran simply lacks a detection unit that is available in the early game, zerg and protoss can both make cheap detection units, whereas terran has to essentially tech up to tier 3 for their detection unit and it is extremely expensive aswell. This is totally not comparable at all. And when has the fact that scans can detect ever altered the outcome of a match? If I have 1 scan and no turrets and you are smart and send 1 DT to my natural and 1 to my main I'll still most likely just die.
And no the fact that the overlord has to finish doesn't affect zerg macro in the slightest, because like I already said, Larva stacks, so if the overlord finished immediately or in 30 seconds later makes absolutely no difference because you will end up witht he exact same amount of units. The only time where it matters is when you actually get attacked and are supply blocked, however that argument is simply ridiculous because it matters for terran for the entire game and for zerg it really only matter for around 30 seconds per game or game period (early-mid and lategame).
edit: If anything, the fact that terran relies on scans for detection actually hurts terran, because once protoss or zerg make an observer or overser they have permanent detection for a 1 time investment. Terran however essentially always loses a mule whenever they scan and teching up to ravens just to counter dts is simply impossible unless it's already pre-planned in your build (which will most likely be an all-in like the 1-1-1). Whenever a terran scans to kill a DT (say you attack the protoss after fending off a dt rush) you "lose" 240 minerals you could have earned otherwise by muling. on some maps you need 3 scans to get across the map, which is a total "investment" (oppurtinity cost) of around 700 minerals, if the protoss has DTs on the map. A zerg makes a single overseer and a protoss a single observer for the exact same effect. Even if you argue that terran could make a raven, a raven is higher tech (so delays your counter push significantly, to a point where you might just be unable to actually kill the opponent) and is way more expensive, not only in tech but also the unit itself.
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On March 27 2012 07:26 y0su wrote:RIP PokeBunny.... we've lost another
 that sucks
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On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject.
You can easily recover from the missed larva inject by making a macro hatch. Which pretty much every zerg should do at some point in the game. Saying that you won't able to recover from it is just plain wrong.
About the mules. At very least they just make up the lost mining time your scvs spend on making buildings when they are not actually mining (could be looked as a hidden cost). The extra income that mules provide comes around when you have gotten your production up and running at max capacity.
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Its because its much more difficult to play at a higher level, getting nerfed every patch, and getting annoyed at 1a deathballs from protoss because we don't understand the game well enough.
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On March 27 2012 07:37 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject. You can easily recover from the missed larva inject by making a macro hatch. Which pretty much every zerg should do at some point in the game. Saying that you won't able to recover from it is just plain wrong. About the mules. At very least they just make up the lost mining time your scvs spend on making buildings when they are not actually mining (could be looked as a hidden cost). The extra income that mules provide comes around when you have gotten your production up and running at max capacity.
You know that Zerg lose the drone when they make a building right? Terran aren't the only race to sacrifice income to build infrastructure.
If you build a macro hatch (which of course you should) you will need to land injects on that keep optimal production, the same problem still exists, if you miss an inject you aren't getting that larva back.
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On March 27 2012 07:43 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:37 Mehukannu wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject. You can easily recover from the missed larva inject by making a macro hatch. Which pretty much every zerg should do at some point in the game. Saying that you won't able to recover from it is just plain wrong. About the mules. At very least they just make up the lost mining time your scvs spend on making buildings when they are not actually mining (could be looked as a hidden cost). The extra income that mules provide comes around when you have gotten your production up and running at max capacity. You know that Zerg lose the drone when they make a building right? Terran aren't the only race to sacrifice income to build infrastructure. If you build a macro hatch (which of course you should) you will need to land injects on that keep optimal production, the same problem still exists, if you miss an inject you aren't getting that larva back.
Oh yes. The 1 drone cost infinite resources thing that actually never matters in any game since with larva inject they quite easy to come by and the fact that zerg doesn't even have that many tech buildings that would be required to be built multiple times.
The macro hatch is for those injects that you missed. You are not making a queen for a macro hatch and how exactly do you lose larva with a macro hatch? Keep in mind that you can build more than one.
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On March 27 2012 07:33 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject. If a terran forgets to build a supply depot or build detection he has a scan/supply drop to fall back on, while a Zerg can produce overlords with just hotkeys it does require you to actually wait for the overlord to finish, which can easily cost you the game. your minimap larva inject point is entirely moot, no one uses this method, it's ridiculously ineffective and prone to error. The fact is different races work in different ways, each macro method has it's own good and bad sides, I don't think you're ever going to get anywhere making blanket statements like "zerg macro is significantly easier than terran and alot more forgiving". What you just said makes zero sense. You claim that "larva stacking" is not more forgiving than queueing up units. Pure logic however should tell you that stacking larva doesn't hurt your macro at all, in no way shape or form. Whereas queuing units actually hurts your macro in many ways, you don't only have less units than you could have, you also have less money than you could have. That argument is actually redundant because you are essentially comparing something which affects you negatively to something which doesn't affect you negatively at all. How does being at three larva not hurt your macro? if you are above three larva then you will not be getting your larva every 15 seconds, which by definition lowers your macro (the amount of units you can produce). If you queue units you will have less minerals to work with, so you can do it when you have extra minerals, if you let your larva stack up you will have less larva, and therefore able to make less units. Both of these negatively effect your macro.
On the topic of mules.. if you don't mule consistently it actually does hurt you because you will end up with less minerals than you could have, the fact that you get the minerals "later" doesn't really matter, because I could argue in the exact same way that missing a larva inject just means that you get the units "later". And minerals/income and unit production are directly related anyway, so I don't see how you can even make this argument because it basically contradicts itself.
If you forgot to drop a mule you miss however many second of mining with your first mule, your second mule can come out at its normal time though. If you miss an inject not only are those larva delayed by 10 seconds, but so is every inject on that hatchery for the rest of the game.
And a terran doesn't "forget" to build detection. Terran simply lacks a detection unit that is available in the early game, zerg and protoss can both make cheap detection units, whereas terran has to essentially tech up to tier 3 for their detection unit and it is extremely expensive aswell. This is totally not comparable at all. And when has the fact that scans can detect ever altered the outcome of a match? If I have 1 scan and no turrets and you are smart and send 1 DT to my natural and 1 to my main I'll still most likely just die.
Were missile turrets removed from the game? Saying that the fact that scans can detect rarely alters the effect of a match is just ignorant, every game that I make roaches, banelings or infestors (every single game) scan effects me.
And no the fact that the overlord has to finish doesn't affect zerg macro in the slightest, because like I already said, Larva stacks, so if the overlord finished immediately or in 30 seconds later makes absolutely no difference because you will end up witht he exact same amount of units. The only time where it matters is when you actually get attacked and are supply blocked, however that argument is simply ridiculous because it matters for terran for the entire game and for zerg it really only matter for around 30 seconds per game or game period (early-mid and lategame).
Of course the only time that it matters is when you get attacked and are supply blocked, that's my entire point. If a terran or protoss is attacking you and you are supply blocked either due to a mistake or due to losing an overlord you have no instant way to get additional supply, hence it is unforgiving. The 30 seconds where having an overlord matters are the most important 30 seconds in the game.
I think you missed the entire point of my post, I'm just saying that each races macro mechanics have their own strengths and weaknesses, you seem to only see the weaknesses of terran and the strengths of zerg.
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Whats the point of arguing the mechanics? I think we can safely say the mechanically there is no harder race. What the terrans are complaining about is the lack of good and solid T3 units that can complement our armies in the late game. In TvP bio is so flimsy that after a victory you can hardly ever push as bio lacks the strength to beat the rewarped zealots. This meaning that lots of terran die directly after their first army was lost and then have to gg with several thousand minerals and gas stockpiled but unable to use while the protoss can lose several big engagements and still end up fine.
In TvZ the broodlord/infestor is very very hard to beat especially as the zerg quickly can do tech switches to ultras and back to broodlords again.
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On March 27 2012 07:53 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:43 the`postman wrote:On March 27 2012 07:37 Mehukannu wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 the`postman wrote:On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:
When people compare Zerg and Terran macro mechanics they should keep in mind that: Building an overlord can be done 100% via hotkeys no matter what you look at. that a supply block doesn't affect Zerg in the same way it affects Terran because Larva stacks (which I personally find incredibly forgiving and noob friendly, even more so than supply drops) and building a supply depot takes alot more clicks than injecting larva with queens. This old "larva inject- hard zerg macro" is nonsense anyway, you can do that via the minimap with exactly 2 clicks per hatchery you don't even have to move your screen at all.
And on top of that Zerg can make all units with a single hotkey (all hatches on 1 hotkey) whereas terran needs up to 3 hotkeys just for unit production. And Terran cannot make all their units at once, which means that you have to constantly spend all your money or you fall behind. With Zerg however, due to the ridiculously forgiving larva mechanic, you can halt production for up to 30 seconds and still be completely fine since you can then just spend all your larva at once.
I personally find Zerg macro way easier than Terran, it's slightly harder than Protoss macro but significantly easier than Terran and alot more forgiving too. While I think you are right on some points I disagree that Larva stacking is somehow more forgiving than queuing up units or supply drops/mules. Since there is no cooldown on mules there is no penalty if you forgot to drop one, if you save up enough energy for two mules you can drop two at once, if you miss your larva inject timing you won't be able to recover the lost inject. You can easily recover from the missed larva inject by making a macro hatch. Which pretty much every zerg should do at some point in the game. Saying that you won't able to recover from it is just plain wrong. About the mules. At very least they just make up the lost mining time your scvs spend on making buildings when they are not actually mining (could be looked as a hidden cost). The extra income that mules provide comes around when you have gotten your production up and running at max capacity. You know that Zerg lose the drone when they make a building right? Terran aren't the only race to sacrifice income to build infrastructure. If you build a macro hatch (which of course you should) you will need to land injects on that keep optimal production, the same problem still exists, if you miss an inject you aren't getting that larva back. Oh yes. The 1 drone cost infinite resources thing that actually never matters in any game since with larva inject they quite easy to come by and the fact that zerg doesn't even have that many tech buildings that would be required to be built multiple times. The macro hatch is for those injects that you missed. You are not making a queen for a macro hatch and how exactly do you lose larva with a macro hatch? Keep in mind that you can build more than one.
I think there might be a language barrier problem here, are you being sarcastic with that first sentence? Losing one drone does cost you infinite minerals (until 100% saturated), the SCV only loses mining time for the set time it is building.
I realize that zerg have less tech buildings, which is why I think that it is balanced that we lose the drone while placing a building, while terran only lose it temporarily.
Why do you think that Zerg don't build a queen to inject for a macro hatch? It's important to have as many larva available as possible, which means you want to be hitting that inject on your macro hatch every 40 seconds, not just when you have an extra 25 energy.
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On March 27 2012 07:56 FreddYCooL wrote:
Whats the point of arguing the mechanics? I think we can safely say the mechanically there is no harder race. What the terrans are complaining about is the lack of good and solid T3 units that can complement our armies in the late game. In TvP bio is so flimsy that after a victory you can hardly ever push as bio lacks the strength to beat the rewarped zealots. This meaning that lots of terran die directly after their first army was lost and then have to gg with several thousand minerals and gas stockpiled but unable to use while the protoss can lose several big engagements and still end up fine.
In TvZ the broodlord/infestor is very very hard to beat especially as the zerg quickly can do tech switches to ultras and back to broodlords again.
We're arguing mechanics because a group of Terrans are trying to tell everyone it's harder to play their race.
I agree it has nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with a viable T3 unit. I agree the ghost snipe nerf was horrible for TvZ (right idea to nerf snipe against Z T3, totally wrong way to go about it).
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On March 27 2012 07:14 ChaosTerran wrote:And when has the fact that scans can detect ever altered the outcome of a match?
Oh goody, I can ignore everything you say from now on. Makes this thread a whole lot shorter and easier to read.
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On March 27 2012 05:06 whoopadeedoo wrote:
OC energy is by far the most forgiving because it can be spent on very useful things in a matter of one second regardless of situation. Forget to mule? Drop two. Or scan (that knowledge is never wasted). Queen and Nexus energy do not stack or have useful all-purpose (only situational) dumps.
What you don't take into account is that LARVAE stack. I said this a couple posts ago, but I'll lay it all out.
-Terran can forget to mule and it's not too bad.
-Zerg can forget to produce units and Overlords and it's not too bad.
-Terran can't forget supply depots or hes screwed.
-Zerg can't forget injects or he's screwed.
It all evens out. And it's a remarkably similar amount of work to be done throughout the game.
If Mules were as unforgiving as supply depots, larva and terran production, then everything would be unforgiving for terran and only one thing would be unforgiving for zerg.
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EPT
