EPTOn March 27 2012 07:26 y0su wrote:
RIP
PokeBunny.... we've lost another
RIP
PokeBunny.... we've lost another Yes another one joined the protoss brethren good our plan is working. Soon every match will be PvP
Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 149
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
Yes another one joined the protoss brethren good our plan is working. Soon every match will be PvP | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:15 DreamChaser wrote: Yes another one joined the protoss brethren good our plan is working. Soon every match will be PvP PvZ or ZvZ are also possibilities. It's funny, the matchups everybody loves to watch and play are relatively inaccessible to a majority of the western playerbase. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:05 whoopadeedoo wrote: We're arguing mechanics because a group of Terrans are trying to tell everyone it's harder to play their race. I agree it has nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with a viable T3 unit. I agree the ghost snipe nerf was horrible for TvZ (right idea to nerf snipe against Z T3, totally wrong way to go about it). The fact that we can't lose an army late game - especially close to our base because our reinforcement abilities are so slow. Even if I have a lot of Rax's, a protoss can instantly warp in and I'll just die. Even Zerg larva mechanic is forgiving at a late game stage cause you can instantly remax, but at least the units have to run across. | ||
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Kenshi235
United States34 Posts
Yes Koreans are their own race. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:00 the`postman wrote: I think there might be a language barrier problem here, are you being sarcastic with that first sentence? Losing one drone does cost you infinite minerals (until 100% saturated), the SCV only loses mining time for the set time it is building. I realize that zerg have less tech buildings, which is why I think that it is balanced that we lose the drone while placing a building, while terran only lose it temporarily. Why do you think that Zerg don't build a queen to inject for a macro hatch? It's important to have as many larva available as possible, which means you want to be hitting that inject on your macro hatch every 40 seconds, not just when you have an extra 25 energy. Look, Drones do NOT equal infinity minerals, this has been established long ago. Due to the easy replacement of drones, the cost of a building is the equal to the base price+1 larva+50 minerals+17 seconds mining time before drone replacement. Think of it like this, maybe every time you want to make a building, you make a special "designated builder drone". This would of course effectively add 17 or so seconds to the build time of any structure, but it's easy to see using this example that the drone is actually just a fixed additional cost to the building. And actually, since Terran buildings under construction tie down one supply, and you can't quickly replace the SCVs, if you compare a Hatchery and a CC you'd find the Hatch is basically 300+50+8+larva, the CC is like 400+70, meaning the SCV build mechanic actually leeches more from Terran than the drone replacement does from Zerg. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:21 Chaggi wrote: The fact that we can't lose an army late game - especially close to our base because our reinforcement abilities are so slow. Even if I have a lot of Rax's, a protoss can instantly warp in and I'll just die. Even Zerg larva mechanic is forgiving at a late game stage cause you can instantly remax, but at least the units have to run across. I get what you're saying. This is really only a problem in full 200/200 engagements where one side wins convincining (and yeah, that adds to terran's TvP difficulties late game). Part of me wants to say that it is offset by the fact that Terran army heals quickly and is highly mobile, whereas if you're Toss, once you engage you better be sure you're winning or doing equal damage in that engagement. Or else Toss dies. Terran can retreat. Toss is pretty much the only race that nothing except phoenixes, blink stalkers, and speed prisms can retreat without heavy losses. Different races are different. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:27 LavaLava wrote: Look, Drones do NOT equal infinity minerals, this has been established long ago. Due to the easy replacement of drones, the cost of a building is the equal to the base price+1 larva+50 minerals+17 seconds mining time before drone replacement. Think of it like this, maybe every time you want to make a building, you make a special "designated builder drone". This would of course effectively add 17 or so seconds to the build time of any structure, but it's easy to see using this example that the drone is actually just a fixed additional cost to the building. And actually, since Terran buildings under construction tie down one supply, and you can't quickly replace the SCVs, if you compare a Hatchery and a CC you'd find the Hatch is basically 300+50+8+larva, the CC is like 400+70, meaning the SCV build mechanic actually leeches more from Terran than the drone replacement does from Zerg. Where is the post that established this? I'm curious in the math that they used. The fact that it is a "designated building drone" doesn't change the fact that unless you are 100% saturated you could have sent that drone to mine getting you 40 minerals per minute (or 20 if you already have two drones on each patch) for the rest of the game. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:35 the`postman wrote: Where is the post that established this? I'm curious in the math that they used. The fact that it is a "designated building drone" doesn't change the fact that unless you are 100% saturated you could have sent that drone to mine getting you 40 minerals per minute (or 20 if you already have two drones on each patch) for the rest of the game. But the drone is easily replaceable. That's like saying every zergling you lose is DPS lost for the entire game, and then you start to sound like a music producer, claiming you're losing like 2 billion damage/dollars because the game is going on for a while. You just replace it. It costs 50 minerals plus mining time and a larva. buildings cost larva, using a drone as the vector. If drones just warped in buildings like Probes, then all the Zerg buildings would cost an extra 50 minerals... without those 50 minerals, you would have... wait for it... lost the ability to make one drone. As well as your "infinity minerals". | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
Why is the thread going on for 150 pages with people retyping the same thing? Terran is doing badly because it requires uber multi tasking which is harder at lower levels of play. People got bored and switched race. The end! | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:48 malaan wrote: This thread is seriously starting to stagnate from stupid fucking shit. Why is the thread going on for 150 pages with people retyping the same thing? Terran is doing badly because it requires uber multi tasking which is harder at lower levels of play. People got bored and switched race. The end! How about, lets' try to figure out what specific things are to blame, if anything should be done about it, what can be done about it, and how to go about changing whatever needs changing. Then the end. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:50 LavaLava wrote: How about, lets' try to figure out what specific things are to blame, if anything should be done about it, what can be done about it, and how to go about changing whatever needs changing. Then the end. Because people already did that sufficiently about 50 pages ago. All that is left is random QQ and lower level players complaining. I would not suppose you care but, I am low GM with Terran 2 seasons in a row and I just switched back to random because of what I just typed. There is nothing more to say, whether blizzard try and fix the equilibrium of race mechanics and difficulty will only effect in HoTS and everyone knows nothing drastic will change until then. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:45 LavaLava wrote: But the drone is easily replaceable. That's like saying every zergling you lose is DPS lost for the entire game, and then you start to sound like a music producer, claiming you're losing like 2 billion damage/dollars because the game is going on for a while. You just replace it. It costs 50 minerals plus mining time and a larva. buildings cost larva, using a drone as the vector. I don't understand the logic you are using, let's ignore that bad analogy and go for the starcraft related portion. Losing a zergling IS losing DPS for the entire game, it's why losing a mutalisk is so dire when playing zerg, every muta you lose gets you further from the amount you need to get that critical mass so you can actually engage. Every zergling you lose while scouting or failed run bys makes holding the inevitable attack that much more difficult until you are at 200/200. Let's say you're on two bases with 40 drones and three geysers, when you build a "building drone" you are staying at 40 drones, 31 on minerals. If you had instead put that drone onto your minerals you would have been up to 41 drones, with 32 on minerals, meaning you'd be getting 40 addition minerals per minute. Like I said before, unless you are 100% saturated (30 drones at each base) then each drone you build could have been generating either 20 or 40 minerals per minute, depending on your saturation. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:54 malaan wrote: Because people already did that sufficiently about 50 pages ago. Then would you mind outlining the basic conclusion for us? | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:15 DreamChaser wrote: Yes another one joined the protoss brethren good our plan is working. Soon every match will be PvP LOL WTF? hold on let me call him..... I don't believe it. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:57 LavaLava wrote: Then would you mind outlining the basic conclusion for us? uhhh... did I not just do that? Terran requires more micro than the other races, thus making it more difficult to play the higher leagues you go, thus the average joe bloggs can't be assed and switches to zerg or protoss. I don't think it goes much deeper than that, even the general 'protoss is imba' is just silly. They are not winning tournaments. The thread was talking about how the terrans are lacking on ladder, and I think just about every answer has been given. I am a random player since broodwar, and also playing just about every good strategy game since the original Starcraft. The way I see it, every game (especially one as balanced as SC2) has the race strengths and weaknesses which to me make it the best dynamic and most fun. I enjoy playing the strengths of Terran, Protoss and Zerg to the best of my ability. Instead of whining that one race is too hard, perhaps people should try playing more towards the strengths of the race they are using rather than just metagaming / QQing. If the races didn't have weaknesses we would have a very boring game. Let us also not forget that, we have only had just over one year of competitive level SC2 tournaments. Older strategy games including broodwar took many years to fully develop race equilibrium, and often underwent balance changes that went back on themselves as people adapted. Sooner or later a breakthrough will be made and things will sway back in Terran favour, and vis versa. It's just how it goes with strategy games. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:56 the`postman wrote: I don't understand the logic you are using, let's ignore that bad analogy and go for the starcraft related portion. Losing a zergling IS losing DPS for the entire game, it's why losing a mutalisk is so dire when playing zerg, every muta you lose gets you further from the amount you need to get that critical mass so you can actually engage. Every zergling you lose while scouting or failed run bys makes holding the inevitable attack that much more difficult until you are at 200/200. Let's say you're on two bases with 40 drones and three geysers, when you build a "building drone" you are staying at 40 drones, 31 on minerals. If you had instead put that drone onto your minerals you would have been up to 41 drones, with 32 on minerals, meaning you'd be getting 40 addition minerals per minute. Like I said before, unless you are 100% saturated (30 drones at each base) then each drone you build could have been generating either 20 or 40 minerals per minute, depending on your saturation. Ugh, all Zerg buildings are discounted 50 minerals from the intended price of the building, and since Zerg has larva, which enables rapid production, they can replace the 50 mineral drone immediately. if drones did not die, the buildings would cost an extra 50 minerals, and then you would be 50 minerals short, and could not make another drone. equilibrium is achieved. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On March 27 2012 09:01 LavaLava wrote: Ugh, all Zerg buildings are discounted 50 minerals from the intended price of the building, and since Zerg has larva, which enables rapid production, they can replace the 50 mineral drone immediately. if drones did not die, the buildings would cost an extra 50 minerals, and then you would be 50 minerals short, and could not make another drone. equilibrium is achieved. Ok thanks that was much easier to understand, makes a lot more sense. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 27 2012 09:00 malaan wrote: uhhh... did I not just do that? Not really :S How about, lets' try to figure out what specific things are to blame, if anything should be done about it, what can be done about it, and how to go about changing whatever needs changing. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:56 the`postman wrote: I don't understand the logic you are using, let's ignore that bad analogy and go for the starcraft related portion. Losing a zergling IS losing DPS for the entire game, it's why losing a mutalisk is so dire when playing zerg, every muta you lose gets you further from the amount you need to get that critical mass so you can actually engage. Every zergling you lose while scouting or failed run bys makes holding the inevitable attack that much more difficult until you are at 200/200. Let's say you're on two bases with 40 drones and three geysers, when you build a "building drone" you are staying at 40 drones, 31 on minerals. If you had instead put that drone onto your minerals you would have been up to 41 drones, with 32 on minerals, meaning you'd be getting 40 addition minerals per minute. Like I said before, unless you are 100% saturated (30 drones at each base) then each drone you build could have been generating either 20 or 40 minerals per minute, depending on your saturation. Yes, but so what? It's the game design that Zerg have a limit, that is sac drone to build stuff. If Zerg always 5,6 drones ahead of the Terran, it doesn't matter if you sac a drone, your economy is still better. It doesn't matter if you're 100% saturated or not, because the enemy still isn't either. It's not about absolutivity, it's about relativity. | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
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