Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 147

On March 11 2012 11:19 LaLuSh wrote:
Statement based on a sample size of: 15

->

Probability of thread being closed: 1

On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:
What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like:
a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing
b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs
c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets

On March 27 2012 03:13 Rowrin wrote:
@throm, as a fellow terran i am complelled to correct your post.

1 build planetary
2. Get range upgrade from eng bay
3. Never worry about that problem again

On March 26 2012 21:33 sleepingdog wrote:


What I hate about this QQ-thread is that terrans constantly make it seem like they have to play so much better in order to stay even. They always negate all those things that make terran easier to play...like:
a) easiest macro-mechanism with mules; build expo, call down all mules that are available; that's it; forget to call down mules? no problem, just call down multiple ones after a while; if you do that with zerg, you just die vs a random timing
b) depot-mechanism + repair: protoss always has to be very careful in PvZ with their walls; you still see runbys all the time; terran can just use a full wall and is unrushable due to repairing scvs
c) planetarys: protoss and zerg never have safe expansions in lategame...ever; terran can establish expansions more easily; all they need is a planetary and maybe some turrets

On March 27 2012 03:44 LavaLava wrote:


What I hate about this QQ is that it's the same rehashed bullshit from the Beta days.

a) The fact that Mules are less of a burden to the player's macro routine than Inject, is completely good design, because Terran players have to spend a lot of time continually placing Supply Depots, which is more of a burden than Overlords. Plus, overlords being late hardly even matters because Larva is preserved. The one hatch-larva you might lose to a supply block is about as bad as forgetting your mule for 15 seconds and not having the minerals you needed. Each race has one thing it has to keep up with and another that it can play a little loose with, but realistically shouldn't. The Mule-Inject-Overlord-Depot-Larva circle makes the whole thing VERY even.

b) Liftable supply depots are incredibly necessary because of a few factors: Marines make for a shitty zealot wall, Tech Labs cancel research if you want to lift rax, and Terran units are made of paper so ling runbys are far worse for a Terran. You see a lot more ling runbys vs Protoss but that's okay because Zealots actually beat Lings in a proper melee, while exposed Marines usually die. Supply depots are an absolute lifeline and require a lot of attention. Honestly it's not much less work than hold positioning your Zealot. Saying Terran walls are unrushable is nonsense, especially when walls are quite far away from mineral lines, and you can't just keep a shitload of SCVs there waiting to repair, or you'll die. You can also mineral walk through a zealot but not a supply depot, so if you want to saturate your main and then rally both OCs to your natural you need to constantly watch for lings.

c) I would trade cannons or spines for planetaries any day. They fuck up your economy, cost gas, and aren't even that strong in the late game. To your other point, you obviously haven't played Terran, because establishing bases is a bitch. that's why the game has been balanced with the assumption that Zerg is one base ahead- it's that much easier to defend expansions with speedlings than it is with marines. Both the Orbital and the Planetary upgrades are balance bad-aids.

In conclusion, none of these things actually represent some kind of ease of Terran play.

On March 27 2012 04:11 Mjolnir wrote:


I have to disagree with a few things here. As someone who plays both T and Z in mid-master, I'm one of those who thinks Terran's macro mechanics are easier. I'm willing to accept that it might come down to personal preference, or even my own playstyle; but I really do believe it is.

a) Supply placement isn't difficult at all. I can slap down 5 supplies in about as much time as I can build 5 OLs (+/- 0.5 sec maybe). Seriously. Late game, when it doesn't even matter where they go you just grab your control group of workers (I do this, at least) and spam your hotkeys.

I also prefer MULEs to larva inject any day of the week. MULEs have won me more games than injects have, easily. Close game, I have a bunch of OCs and banked energy (like every Terran does - even pros) I drop a billion MULEs and suddenly have more minerals than I know what to do with. I've seen games where pro Terran players (Demuslim comes to mind) drop 13 MULEs at once. Thirteen. That's an obscene amount of income - and this was in a game that was relatively close, so it's not like he had a huge advantage and was just messing around. Inject is great in that it gets you a lot of units but what good are larvae with no minerals? Push comes to shove, I'll take more production buildings and more minerals than fewer production buildings and less minerals.

Granted, I get the pros and cons here; but again, personal opinion, MULEs are awesome.

b) Supply depots that go up and down aren't necessary; but I'm totally indifferent here so "whatever." I didn't even think this was an issue for some people. I will say that Terran walls are hard to take down when taking them down matters (i.e. early game). Late game, if someone is smashing into your main wall with the force required to rip it down fast - you've probably already lost. This is a luxury we Terran players have that we often overlook. So many times when I've played Zerg and lost to a push I've thought "Goddamn, I wish I had that wall" because you know what - it is a huge deterrent.

Sadly, it seems this game was designed to force Terran players into walling.

c) Planetary vs. Spines. Tough one here. We've got salvageable bunkers, PFs, turrets - all of which can be repaired; Zerg has spines, spores, queens - all of which are highly mobile. That in itself seems pretty even to me. There are times when I think spines/spores are awful, weak, and useless; there are other times when I feel the same about turrets and bunkers.

PFs, though. They are awesome when it matters most. Screw late-game discussions - you just drop an expo, you're being pressured by zeal/ling/infantry/whatever - a PF solves that problem outright. It's a done deal. You have some small army there and a PF - your expo is safe. Throw turrets if necessary but it is essentially safe. If you lose it to a 200/200 Protoss army late game - well yeah, I'd say that's fair. It's supposed to be that way; but when it matters most, the PF is an enormous advantage.

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing here. I think late game Terran got really hard with the ghost nerf, and I think that nerf was completely ridiculous. I mean, they could have handled the ghost vs. BL/Ultra problem so much better than they did; there are many better solutions. Right now when I think about it I feel like it's just absolute idiocy... but I have to say, Terran does have some pretty serious advantages early/mid game that I feel are often overlooked out of sheer frustration toward other issues.

On March 27 2012 04:19 TumescentPie wrote:



I think what you miss when we talk about adding supply depots is that this does take away from your income while they are building, which makes them more difficult to build.

One could argue that missing a mule, or banking OC energy could be considered a break down of macro, which would be the same as missing injects and banking queen energy. The benefit for the terran is they can spend that energy for minerals, but are going to be unlikely to benefit from those all of minerals in a short period of time typically they end up over 2k in minerals at that point (which can be a benefit if no one attacks). The zerg however can only use that extra energy for keeping units alive (transfuse) or spreading map control (creep).

As far as Terran repair, all zerg units have heal, which does happen slower, but is free compared to repair which is faster and has a cost.

I am not saying that these things are unbalanced, I am just pointing out differences.

OC energy is by far the most forgiving because it can be spent on very useful things in a matter of one second regardless of situation. Forget to mule? Drop two. Or scan (that knowledge is never wasted). Queen and Nexus energy do not stack or have useful all-purpose (only situational) dumps.

On March 27 2012 05:29 zEnVy wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel like unless I deal a massive amount of damage to Protoss and Zerg players in the early to mid game there's not much I can do past the 15 minute mark. I'm stuck using the same damn units I was at 8 minutes whilst Zerg and Protoss armies become unstoppable.

The problem is that Terran has to react to units Protoss and Zerg make or we die. There isn't one unit that terran starts making at one point in the game that makes the other races go, oh no, I better get "X" or I die. It's just not there. With Terran, you've got to make Vikings against Colossi or Broodlords or you die, Marauders against Ultralisks or you die, Ghosts (lol) against Infestors and High Templars or you die.

BUT MEHRINES SO GOOD! Except that Infestors, Banelings, Colossi, and Zealots trade very efficiently with them. I feel like everybody got a bunch of cool toys, and Terran got Marines.

P.S: I play all 3 races at a platinum level. Terran is IMO the hardest race to play, especially in the mid to late game.

On March 27 2012 05:29 zEnVy wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel like unless I deal a massive amount of damage to Protoss and Zerg players in the early to mid game there's not much I can do past the 15 minute mark. I'm stuck using the same damn units I was at 8 minutes whilst Zerg and Protoss armies become unstoppable.

The problem is that Terran has to react to units Protoss and Zerg make or we die. There isn't one unit that terran starts making at one point in the game that makes the other races go, oh no, I better get "X" or I die. It's just not there. With Terran, you've got to make Vikings against Colossi or Broodlords or you die, Marauders against Ultralisks or you die, Ghosts (lol) against Infestors and High Templars or you die.

BUT MEHRINES SO GOOD! Except that Infestors, Banelings, Colossi, and Zealots trade very efficiently with them. I feel like everybody got a bunch of cool toys, and Terran got Marines.

P.S: I play all 3 races at a platinum level. Terran is IMO the hardest race to play, especially in the mid to late game.

On March 27 2012 05:29 zEnVy wrote:
As a Terran player, I feel like unless I deal a massive amount of damage to Protoss and Zerg players in the early to mid game there's not much I can do past the 15 minute mark. I'm stuck using the same damn units I was at 8 minutes whilst Zerg and Protoss armies become unstoppable.

The problem is that Terran has to react to units Protoss and Zerg make or we die. There isn't one unit that terran starts making at one point in the game that makes the other races go, oh no, I better get "X" or I die. It's just not there. With Terran, you've got to make Vikings against Colossi or Broodlords or you die, Marauders against Ultralisks or you die, Ghosts (lol) against Infestors and High Templars or you die.

BUT MEHRINES SO GOOD! Except that Infestors, Banelings, Colossi, and Zealots trade very efficiently with them. I feel like everybody got a bunch of cool toys, and Terran got Marines.

P.S: I play all 3 races at a platinum level. Terran is IMO the hardest race to play, especially in the mid to late game.

On March 27 2012 05:55 Big J wrote:


That's not the feeling I have when I play as Zerg against Terran.
I see Tanks and I have to react and I see Medivacs and I know I'm in trouble if I don't get something that can deal with drops efficiently and I see Thors (against Mech) and I know that I have to go Broodlord or just die when he maxes.
Not to mention all the early techs that limit me (and him) to certain styles like banshees(-->get mutalisks or it becomes ridicolously hard) or blueflamers (damn, really shouldn't play my favorite double upgrade ling build here).
All those things scare the shit out of me, but I have become somewhat good at that game, so that I don't straight up die most of the time and I know what I have to get against what he is doing, to give me a chance to win a combat.