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OMG... this is so stupid. T_T
i think people saying "watch mkp and learn" didn't understand which all the terrans are complaining about. there wasn't a lategame scenario in one of the both matches...
in game one, mkp destroyed the third of mc and killed a lot of units in the following engagement. so he was way ahead for the rest of the game. he expanded faster and got more and more ahead.
in game two mkp went for double upgrades whereas mc skipped upgrades and threw down a pretty fast third base. after this he fighted with 1-0 upgrades against 2-2 bio. this shouldn't work at all. mc picked up anyway. mc storms made the game almost close again...
overall you could see that storms almost turned around a lost game for mc...
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On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote:
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims.
I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing.
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On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote:
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing.
So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins.
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On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote:
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins.
Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that.
I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage.
This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent
reason.
I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on.
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On March 24 2012 08:22 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote:
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins. Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that. I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage. This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent reason. I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on.
I'm not attacking anyone. I just feel like you deliberately do stuff like mention how hard TvP is in the OP then turn around and say you never wanted the thread to be about TvP balance. Then you round percentages to your advantage, then you claim that comparing the "dwindling" terran numbers with earlier patches isn't "valid for this current time".
It's totally valid as it shows how the distribution between races was before, it's a baseline to see exactly how much it has changed. If, for example, zerg never had a equal percentage to terran and protoss maybe that means that the race itself just isn't as appealing aestethically? This is something you should have done in your OP tbh.
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On March 24 2012 07:45 AnalThermometer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:36 Orracle wrote:On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote:
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. So you want to base your whole argument literally on two matches? Where MC's first match was lost from the start with a lack of AOE vs the 2-2-2? The second game due to another quick 3rd with 0-1 upgrades vs 2-2 upgrades? You're making excuses, I've seen plenty of games with foreign Terrans in great positions and they wouldn't have finished off MC in either game. There was no gambling or cheese from MKP, just solid play.. which according to this thread isn't possible against Protoss. Herp.
It's called build order wins. If a Protoss pulls his 3rd @ 7:30 or whatever time, techs robo AND twilight against a 2 base timing push, you think he should hold? Absolutely not. He lost his 3rd and probes. Is it any different than a Terran who tries to pull a 8:00 third and loses to a 7 gate? Should he hold? Absolutely not. Generally 90% of the time these players wont hold.
When playing from being massively behind, regardless of race, you're going to have a hard time winning.
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The general MKP TvP game plan is something like this:
-2 base attack before aoe, deny 3rd while taking own 3rd
-attacks around upgrade timings
-never let protoss get above 150 supply
Seems to work.
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On March 24 2012 08:31 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:22 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote:
[quote]
You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though.
This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play.
It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM.
If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins. Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that. I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage. This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent reason. I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on. I'm not attacking anyone. I just feel like you deliberately do stuff like mention how hard TvP is in the OP then turn around and say you never wanted the thread to be about TvP balance. Then you round percentages to your advantage, then you claim that comparing the "dwindling" terran numbers with earlier patches isn't "valid for this current time". It's totally valid as it shows how the distribution between races was before, it's a baseline to see exactly how much it has changed. If, for example, zerg never had a equal percentage to terran and protoss maybe that means that the race itself just isn't as appealing aestethically? This is something you should have done in your OP tbh.
All I did was state my own challenges with TvP. I never said every Terran had the same problem, although the poll would reflect it.
You're comparing old percentages while this thread is dedicated to real time. I'm a bit confused about that.
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On March 24 2012 09:02 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:31 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:22 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote:
[quote]
What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins. Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that. I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage. This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent reason. I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on. I'm not attacking anyone. I just feel like you deliberately do stuff like mention how hard TvP is in the OP then turn around and say you never wanted the thread to be about TvP balance. Then you round percentages to your advantage, then you claim that comparing the "dwindling" terran numbers with earlier patches isn't "valid for this current time". It's totally valid as it shows how the distribution between races was before, it's a baseline to see exactly how much it has changed. If, for example, zerg never had a equal percentage to terran and protoss maybe that means that the race itself just isn't as appealing aestethically? This is something you should have done in your OP tbh. All I did was state my own challenges with TvP. I never said every Terran had the same problem, although the poll would reflect it. You're comparing old percentages while this thread is dedicated to real time. I'm a bit confused about that.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that most Terrans agree with you, Noctern. It's not possible for us to come up with objective stats because Blizzard refuses to give us more information. However, I think the overwhelming response to this thread is a good indicator of the general feeling among Terrans at this point in time. Not sure why Karpo is using old numbers without context to talk about the current situation. Clearly, he's just another delusional Protoss (flame on, fruity!).
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On March 24 2012 11:11 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 09:02 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:31 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:22 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they are very different.
I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively.
This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently.
The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins. Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that. I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage. This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent reason. I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on. I'm not attacking anyone. I just feel like you deliberately do stuff like mention how hard TvP is in the OP then turn around and say you never wanted the thread to be about TvP balance. Then you round percentages to your advantage, then you claim that comparing the "dwindling" terran numbers with earlier patches isn't "valid for this current time". It's totally valid as it shows how the distribution between races was before, it's a baseline to see exactly how much it has changed. If, for example, zerg never had a equal percentage to terran and protoss maybe that means that the race itself just isn't as appealing aestethically? This is something you should have done in your OP tbh. All I did was state my own challenges with TvP. I never said every Terran had the same problem, although the poll would reflect it. You're comparing old percentages while this thread is dedicated to real time. I'm a bit confused about that. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most Terrans agree with you, Noctern. It's not possible for us to come up with objective stats because Blizzard refuses to give us more information. However, I think the overwhelming response to this thread is a good indicator of the general feeling among Terrans at this point in time. Not sure why Karpo is using old numbers without context to talk about the current situation. Clearly, he's just another delusional Protoss (flame on, fruity!).
The majority of most people get offended when something they feel they are working hard for is true has the possibility of being shut down. On any race or real life issue really. However in this scenario there is clear evidence showing the favor for protoss in the late game unless Terran has a significant lead in the mid game. This strikes most protoss as "Are you saying that I am not earning my wins? That my opponents COULD be superior even though I won?"
They don't want that feeling of I played hard and I won taken away from them when the terran may have deserved the win more due to superior micro and multi tasking over well not to sound insulting but A move + storm.
And for those who don't read all posts and just read the last ones then respond, I am a high masters random player. I see all sides.
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TvP is definately a hard matchup, i play protoss and love getting terran nom nom nom, must have at least an 80% win against terran
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On March 24 2012 12:00 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 11:11 riff wrote:On March 24 2012 09:02 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:31 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:22 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:12 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:07 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 08:04 karpo wrote:On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote:On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote:
[quote]
Terran stats average Platinum and up:
1.4.2 - 27.7%
1.3.0 - 30.1%
1.2.0 - 30.5%
So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. I posted my thoughts on why I think there are less Terrans. I can cite personal views like many others have, as well as my match history but it's not a huge number to look at so it wouldn't be taken seriously. Currently all we have is sc2ranks which is why I posted it. You're posting information from 1.2.0 which is not valid for this current time. The difference between Diamond Terran, Protoss and Zerg is huge even if we don't factor in people who currently are not playing. So posting previous patch numbers to compare terran percentages isn't valid? My god, you really want to ignore anything that doesn't conform to your set beliefs. I've shown that terran percentages according to the same site you link to in your op has lowered by 2.4% in 13 months, Platinum and up (the alledged "trouble zone" for T). That all happened while zergs were growing in numbers (thereby lowering T percentage), probably from getting buffs and help by larger maps and less all ins. Apparently you did not understand me. Your argument is basing lowered Terran numbers on Rising Zerg numbers. I get that. I'm simply asking everyones opinion (not just yours or mine) on why CURRENTLY Terran is the lowest percentage. This is your reasoning and I respect it. I'm not even trying to argue with you, you're getting aggressive for no apparent reason. I'm unsure why you feel the need to attack me over such a silly thing but whatever. I'm not really an argumentative kind of guy. If that's what you're trying to go for I suggest you look for someone else to pounce on. I'm not attacking anyone. I just feel like you deliberately do stuff like mention how hard TvP is in the OP then turn around and say you never wanted the thread to be about TvP balance. Then you round percentages to your advantage, then you claim that comparing the "dwindling" terran numbers with earlier patches isn't "valid for this current time". It's totally valid as it shows how the distribution between races was before, it's a baseline to see exactly how much it has changed. If, for example, zerg never had a equal percentage to terran and protoss maybe that means that the race itself just isn't as appealing aestethically? This is something you should have done in your OP tbh. All I did was state my own challenges with TvP. I never said every Terran had the same problem, although the poll would reflect it. You're comparing old percentages while this thread is dedicated to real time. I'm a bit confused about that. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most Terrans agree with you, Noctern. It's not possible for us to come up with objective stats because Blizzard refuses to give us more information. However, I think the overwhelming response to this thread is a good indicator of the general feeling among Terrans at this point in time. Not sure why Karpo is using old numbers without context to talk about the current situation. Clearly, he's just another delusional Protoss (flame on, fruity!). The majority of most people get offended when something they feel they are working hard for is true has the possibility of being shut down. On any race or real life issue really. However in this scenario there is clear evidence showing the favor for protoss in the late game unless Terran has a significant lead in the mid game. This strikes most protoss as "Are you saying that I am not earning my wins? That my opponents COULD be superior even though I won?" They don't want that feeling of I played hard and I won taken away from them when the terran may have deserved the win more due to superior micro and multi tasking over well not to sound insulting but A move + storm. And for those who don't read all posts and just read the last ones then respond, I am a high masters random player. I see all sides.
This man has a point, listen to him. Adding to the front page.
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Instead of just saying so, why don't you describe why you think that's so, and try to convince someone. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I've read a few and I'm not convinced.
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On March 24 2012 08:58 zezamer wrote:
The general MKP TvP game plan is something like this:
-2 base attack before aoe, deny 3rd while taking own 3rd
-attacks around upgrade timings
-never let protoss get above 150 supply
Seems to work.
Unfortunately this also relies on the fact that his EAPM is something like 200+, so he can keep constant effective aggression with a small amount of units. Also, dat macro is godly. Very few have the ability to use his strategy, unfortunately. This is the exact problem that Terrans are complaining about.
Most Master-level players (I'm guessing) have an actual APM of around 100 with an EAPM somewhat lower. I'm around 130 APM myself, but a lot of that's from playing BW for like 4 years.
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On March 24 2012 12:36 Resistentialism wrote:
Instead of just saying so, why don't you describe why you think that's so, and try to convince someone. I haven't read every post in this thread, but I've read a few and I'm not convinced.
You've read a small portion of the thread and you aren't convinced on the topic at hand? I wonder why.
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It's kind of funny, too, because people have been theorizing that maybe there are a lot of terrans that were getting wins maybe without having the ability to match. After the race gets brought in line and maybe they drop down a league - maybe where they really belong - they decide they don't like playing so much. This is a little something like what you're describing now.
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On March 24 2012 12:37 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:58 zezamer wrote:
The general MKP TvP game plan is something like this:
-2 base attack before aoe, deny 3rd while taking own 3rd
-attacks around upgrade timings
-never let protoss get above 150 supply
Seems to work. Unfortunately this also relies on the fact that his EAPM is something like 200+, so he can keep constant effective aggression with a small amount of units. Also, dat macro is godly. Very few have the ability to use his strategy, unfortunately. This is the exact problem that Terrans are complaining about. Most Master-level players (I'm guessing) have an actual APM of around 100 with an EAPM somewhat lower. I'm around 130 APM myself, but a lot of that's from playing BW for like 4 years.
I'm averaging 214 APM with 158 EAPM. (Just opened last replay in sc2gears, but they're all similar). Even with this I'm having a VERY hard time with late game Protoss. I agree, if Terran can do good damage early/mid game, it makes late game playable. The problem is Terran can only do damage two ways; identifying small and crucial timing windows, or depend on the Protoss to make a mistake such as a drop doing more damage than it should, or them pulling their army out of position, etc.
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On March 24 2012 12:45 Resistentialism wrote:
It's kind of funny, too, because people have been theorizing that maybe there are a lot of terrans that were getting wins maybe without having the ability to match. After the race gets brought in line and maybe they drop down a league - maybe where they really belong - they decide they don't like playing so much. This is a little something like what you're describing now.
Or more like as many have said, including Masters RANDOM players like myself, TvP/Z is not enjoyable because of the 'playing against the clock' problem. T late game comp is extremely weak and they have by far the worst late game macro mechanic.
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On March 24 2012 13:44 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 12:45 Resistentialism wrote:
It's kind of funny, too, because people have been theorizing that maybe there are a lot of terrans that were getting wins maybe without having the ability to match. After the race gets brought in line and maybe they drop down a league - maybe where they really belong - they decide they don't like playing so much. This is a little something like what you're describing now. Or more like as many have said, including Masters RANDOM players like myself, TvP/Z is not enjoyable because of the 'playing against the clock' problem. T late game comp is extremely weak and they have by far the worst late game macro mechanic.
I think the thing I find more enjoyable about TvZ vs TvP, even though they're both a race against the clock type game, is that when Zerg loses his army (you can see easily in Stephano vs Polt), you can go and abuse it as Terran - at least to some extent.
If you win a battle against Protoss, you can't cause of warp ins unless you come out so incredibly ahead. And if you lose your entire army to the Protoss, you're just gonna lose, especially if closer to your base.
And this is all late game stuff.
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EPT
