On March 24 2012 21:29 m4inbrain wrote: So, MKP played against MC, and won. Conclusion for protoss players: matchup is balanced.
Completely disregarding the facts of course, which for example are that MC did a huge mistake (army completely out of position for the first attack on the 3rd), and that he hold three more attacks with more than 40 supply less (and one base less) than the terran. And the 40 supply were every freaking time. The last push was 50+ supply in favor of MKP, yet he survived barely with ~4-5 marauders and needed reinforcements.
Bare in mind, the first "army" of MC was gifted, as was the first kill on the third base thanks to MC being completely out of position. In my eyes, something is really wrong if you do such a huge mistake and still hang in the game for so long even through constant and insane aggression.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
On March 11 2012 11:24 Faust852 wrote: TvP is too hard for a lot of Terran, so they stop playing because they don't want to lose and get demoted.
That makes no sense... By your logic, there shouldn't be any protoss because they find PvZ too hard as well -.-"
How exactly does that not make sense? Given that a large amount of people dislike playing TvP (see the various threads about it, including this one), those players have 3 options:
Ok here's my take on Terran late game. Buff Vikings. eg give them faster movement/ acceleration. Buffing Vikings does not affect all the matchups heavily especially the Terran's early game strength. This will give Terran a small boost in the late game against Colossus and Broodlords. Increasing the speed will give Terran another option to haress with Vikings. The buff can also be in the form of shorten the Changing Mode for Vikings or make Ground mode viking stronger. Where it takes ages to change to ground mode currently. 1. Increase movement/ acceleration 2. Shorten change mode time 3. Stronger ground mode. What do you guys think? GM Tos on SEA if this matter. lol
Boo freaking hooo.... its a game that has 3 races and you have to play them when you get to play them.. Such it up.. it use to be nothing but tvt and everyone was crying that it was boring and they dnt want to play them anymore.. now there arnt enough tvts. No one is ever happy
MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
On March 24 2012 23:20 Type|NarutO wrote: MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
He is training something like 18 hours / day so...
So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
now i have no doubt the tvp metagame could use a bit of a shake up. that doesn't necessarily have to be balance oriented, though. there may be some build or composition that nobody has made work yet - all it takes is for 1 guy to find it and the whole metagame turns upside down. See stephano zvp for an example of how that could occur.
On March 24 2012 23:20 Type|NarutO wrote: MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
I would not say they were 'out of this world'. For example, in the dual sight game against Sase he could of setup his third base earlier, but he did not as he was too busy microing. He then went and started his third after he pulled his units back from the battle. He must of known that it was safe to start his third so I can only put that down to a big macro mistake.
Obviously my macro mistakes are ten times worse, but MKP was far from perfect.
Om the other hand, Sase made a lot of micro mistakes where he didnt move his important units back in time, had stray zealots attacking a landed factory etc.
On March 24 2012 23:20 Type|NarutO wrote: MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
I would not say they were 'out of this world'. For example, in the dual sight game against Sase he could of setup his third base earlier, but he did not as he was too busy microing. He then went and started his third after he pulled his units back from the battle. He must of known that it was safe to start his third so I can only put that down to a big macro mistake.
Obviously my macro mistakes are ten times worse, but MKP was far from perfect.
Om the other hand, Sase made a lot of micro mistakes where he didnt move his important units back in time, had stray zealots attacking a landed factory etc.
He's no computer, obviously he's not perfect. Against MC for example they were out of the world and his micro against SaSe on Tal'Darim was unhuman.
On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
It is about ego. If you admit your race was too strong then you have to admit that you were not better than every opponent you beat, which most people just cant admit. If you don't admit that your race was too strong then you cant see how all the nerfs were justified. As a way around this, people started to believe that terran takes more skill, because obviously they are more skilled than two thirds of the players at their ranking.
You see it everywhere. Another great example is that many people think that only their standard macro play takes skill and anyone who plays differently (cheeses) is not as good as them.
Its actually really really really scary what I saw in mkp vs mc. MKP takes a huge advantage with greedy grades, and gets away with it. Okay, nice. But here comes the scary part for me:
Mkp was fighting with a huge grade avantage and with a 40 supply lead, and he had to fight like a madman to win. He is one of the best terrans in the world and I think we can say he has GODLY micro and mechanics. Now let's see how normal terran (and even eu and na pro terrans) would do: - no godly micro - imagine no greedy grades = GG
well back from a TvP game, ofc i did not play flawless, but i smashed his army, dropped dropped dropped, and in the end, simple archon chargelot rolled me over because i dont have the best biocontrol!
honestly if blizzard expects noobs like me to play this game the chargelot as it is now needs to go.
Hmm.... Storm is just a bit too good as it is now because of the high damage it does.... I would rather it do less damage and have like a slow effect or something since decent storms could just win you a game due to the macro mechanic of Terran....
It is also a lot better than EMP imo because Zealot/Archon armies are so tank and also, the radius of EMP got reduced.
Really don't like TvP though, especially in the late game. Feels like the Terran player has to be extremely skilled to win and can't really make any mistakes.
On March 24 2012 23:20 Type|NarutO wrote: MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
No mc played everything out wrong thats why he lost and it was imo still way to close.
game 1 for example massive strategical errors lose a third because you dont flank properly even when you had the time to do so and let terran get in a super position Move out multible times on the middle of the map with a vastly inferior army when you are expanding. No zealot harras at all at the outlaying orbitals just send a zealot now and then to disrupt mining. No defensive cannon for detection at his 4th allowing mkp to emp every single unit he had.
On March 24 2012 23:20 Type|NarutO wrote: MKP's mechanics were out of the world in his yesterdays games. Absolute brilliant control and macro behind it, sick. Haven't seen such control and multitasking in a long time. Thats exactly what the Terrans are talking about. We have the best race and we can make every unit utterly devastating, but it can also be completely and utterly worthless piece of supply.
If you have mechanics like MKP, sure thing, easy to win. If you are not at the level, daaaaaaaamn hard.
I would not say they were 'out of this world'. For example, in the dual sight game against Sase he could of setup his third base earlier, but he did not as he was too busy microing. He then went and started his third after he pulled his units back from the battle. He must of known that it was safe to start his third so I can only put that down to a big macro mistake.
Obviously my macro mistakes are ten times worse, but MKP was far from perfect.
Om the other hand, Sase made a lot of micro mistakes where he didnt move his important units back in time, had stray zealots attacking a landed factory etc.
He's no computer, obviously he's not perfect. Against MC for example they were out of the world and his micro against SaSe on Tal'Darim was unhuman.
I agree with you Naruto. MKP has ridiculous mechanics. His simultaneous micro and macro are astounding.
On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
now i have no doubt the tvp metagame could use a bit of a shake up. that doesn't necessarily have to be balance oriented, though. there may be some build or composition that nobody has made work yet - all it takes is for 1 guy to find it and the whole metagame turns upside down. See stephano zvp for an example of how that could occur.
Just because games back then lasted 7-8 minutes(3 rax stim push vs no banelings/sentries lol silly platinums) does not mean they were easier wins than colossus/templar broodlord/infestor types of plays. Sure you play a little more, but now you have thought out builds for every race.
And please dont start telling terrans what comps to test, the top terrans allready have a little more imagination than mass roach.
On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
now i have no doubt the tvp metagame could use a bit of a shake up. that doesn't necessarily have to be balance oriented, though. there may be some build or composition that nobody has made work yet - all it takes is for 1 guy to find it and the whole metagame turns upside down. See stephano zvp for an example of how that could occur.
Just because games back then lasted 7-8 minutes(3 rax stim push vs no banelings/sentries lol silly platinums) does not mean they were easier wins than colossus/templar broodlord/infestor types of plays. Sure you play a little more, but now you have thought out builds for every race.
And please dont start telling terrans what comps to test, the top terrans allready have a little more imagination than mass roach.
Not to mention his numbers are wrong. TvZ is heavily zerg favored at 65% atm.
On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
now i have no doubt the tvp metagame could use a bit of a shake up. that doesn't necessarily have to be balance oriented, though. there may be some build or composition that nobody has made work yet - all it takes is for 1 guy to find it and the whole metagame turns upside down. See stephano zvp for an example of how that could occur.
Just because games back then lasted 7-8 minutes(3 rax stim push vs no banelings/sentries lol silly platinums) does not mean they were easier wins than colossus/templar broodlord/infestor types of plays. Sure you play a little more, but now you have thought out builds for every race.
And please dont start telling terrans what comps to test, the top terrans allready have a little more imagination than mass roach.
Yep, im sure that making 3 racks on one base and then procedding to spam marines was harder. Yep, you are totally not full of shit.
EPT
