On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
You know, when Zerg was obviously the shittiest race last year, pro Zergs were still winning. But the changes were needed terribly.
If Terran has a higher skill ceiling than Zerg or Protoss, and is basically harder.... isn't that incorrect game design? Shouldn't Blizz work on making them all roughly as difficult as each other? It doesn't make sense if one is harder. Anyway, here are the priorities for game changes:
1. Enjoyable at low levels 2. Balanced at high levels 3. Balanced at low levels 4. Enjoyable at high levels
This has been somewhat well established by Blizzard, and makes complete sense from a game business and esports perspective, if you think about it. If it's possible to make a positive change to one of these, without affecting something higher on the list of priorities, the change should always be made. The answer to low level imbalance is "change something that doesn't ruin high level balance or low level enjoyability". The answer is not "Shut the fuck up." There have been several balance changes, especially early on, that demonstrate Blizzard's acceptance of this concept.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
On March 24 2012 23:26 darkscream wrote: So funny that there is actually 131 pages of balance whining, about a race that was utterly dominant since the beta of SC2 and to some extent, still is at the top levels. above 50% winrate in tvz at all levels, slightly below 50% in tvp. Its like nobody remembers how nearly every terran strategy in the early game was wayyyyy too powerful, took almost no skill to execute, and generally only required one base of income to fund. pre-nerf stim timings, rax before supply depot, rax build time nerf, reaper build time nerf (lol 5rax reaper), blue flame all-ins.. the list goes on and on. there are so many unit comps that are under-represented in the mid and late-game as well. Thor Banshee mech is making a pretty decent comeback, for example.
As long as terran has the highest micro and strategy skill ceiling, and korean terrans use that to its fullest advantage, casual gamers have no place complaining about their trials and tribulations. when GSL has the fewest # of terrans, we can talk. as it stands, it is still terran dominant - and if we aren't concerned with balancing the game for the top level, what hope is there for esport?
now i have no doubt the tvp metagame could use a bit of a shake up. that doesn't necessarily have to be balance oriented, though. there may be some build or composition that nobody has made work yet - all it takes is for 1 guy to find it and the whole metagame turns upside down. See stephano zvp for an example of how that could occur.
Do you know why the terrans are so good? Because there are more korean pro terrans then other races. Because they come up with more tactics then the other races. When it comes down to it, most of the korean terrans are SEVERALLY BETTER then the other koreans at their race. Terran isn't winning because it's balanced. They are winning because they OUT PLAY their opponent every game. They are just that much better.
I'm just curious, I wish I could see all your posters leagues / profiles because as it stands most of the points you bring up are severally retarded. It's like you can't see WHY the terrans are winning. Because the protoss seem to be giving the games away in these tournaments, MC handed the game to MKP on a silver platter. YES MKP was godly, but you know what? despite that, and despite MC handing him the game. IT STILL TOOK HIM 20+ MINUTES. With severally OUTPLAYING the opponent.
My god the IQ of some of these posters.
"Just play like MKP" YES I MUST CONVINCE ALL THE PROTOSS TO TECH POORLY AND ATTACK STRAIGHT INTO WHERE I WANT HIM"
The protoss in this thread seem to be doing the same thing in here as in game.
Just move right in and convince themselves they deserve the win.
Would you balance sc1 around flash? NO, he's an exceptional player with amazing talent and skill who out plays EVERY single person. Kind of like what MKP is doing now in the TvP matchup. Raise the skill cieling of protoss or buff terran. as it stands. It's not balanced. There has been a lot of evidence from Terran showing you Protoss that your race is dominant in the late game. If you respond could you actually respond with something besides. Get better to grand masters / semi pro's posting here.
On March 25 2012 01:00 Narw wrote:Yep, im sure that making 3 racks on one base and then procedding to spam marines was harder. Yep, you are totally not full of shit.
Yeah, I completely forgot that once you go to 2 base, you have to press twice s/(s)d/e and <insert unit hotkeys>, but it all comes down to a moving your resulting force. Its virtually the same thing, you just dont fully understand the concept.
The problem is that if Terran has a higher skill ceiling, nerfing them isn't as good a fix as increasing the skill ceiling for other races, which overall makes the game better and more exciting to watch at the highest level. As it stands protoss has a huge design issue, which shows even in their mirror.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
Yea don't think he thought that one out haha. As Terran or Toss, you can rebuild your workers and your defense at the same time. Pretty much every time I try to come back from losing all my drones, by mass droning, I get attacked in the process and lose.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
What he said is absolutely right terran has no way of speeding up worker production while the other races do.
If you have no army AND lost half of your drones of course you're pretty much done but thats not the point.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
What he said is absolutely right terran has no way of speeding up worker production while the other races do.
If you have no army AND lost half of your drones of course you're pretty much done but thats not the point.
well, if you sacrifice your army on half of his economy without killing most of his army, you are simply not ahead but dead, because the counter kills you; as any race in any matchup;
also you don't have a "way of speeding up workerproduction" as Z/P; chronoboosting and mass droning are the standard ways to produce workers for Protoss and Zerg (that's why Terrans rightfully argue they need mules, if you remember your racemates arguements) in any standard (presaturation) scenario and the game is balanced around them; you can't produce faster after you received damage than you would do anyways
also you don't have a "way of speeding up workerproduction" as Z/P; chronoboosting and mass droning are the standard ways to produce workers for Protoss and Zerg (that's why Terrans rightfully argue they need mules, if you remember your racemates arguements) in any standard (presaturation) scenario and the game is balanced around them; you can't produce faster after you received damage than you would do anyways
I dont even know what I just read, was that english?
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
This whole discussion is pretty silly. There are situations in which a Terran come back from a Worker deficit because he still has two or three orbitals and the other player cut drones or probes and stayed on low tech to do damage. Likewise there are situations in which Zerg or Protoss can come back from a worker deficit because the Terran wasn't able to retain his army while doing damage so he can't follow up immediately. And then there are a lot of situations that are kind of in between and depend on how the player reacts and if he makes the correct decision. Sure Protoss and Zerg have the ability to reproduce workers faster and this is helpful in a lot of situations but it doesn't mean that the damage you did wasn't effective it just means that the game is more complex than doing some economic damage and following it up with a timing afterwards will win you a game which is a good thing. The problem right now is that Terran has to play like that in a lot of situations. You rely on creating timings for yourself either by tricking your opponent with your opening buildorder or with aggressive moves but if you fail to create an advantage like that you aren't able to just sit back and take another base and work towards your own perfect lategame composition because you will either die before you get it or it's just not powerful enough.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
What he said is absolutely right terran has no way of speeding up worker production while the other races do.
If you have no army AND lost half of your drones of course you're pretty much done but thats not the point.
well, if you sacrifice your army on half of his economy without killing most of his army, you are simply not ahead but dead, because the counter kills you; as any race in any matchup;
also you don't have a "way of speeding up workerproduction" as Z/P; chronoboosting and mass droning are the standard ways to produce workers for Protoss and Zerg (that's why Terrans rightfully argue they need mules, if you remember your racemates arguements) in any standard (presaturation) scenario and the game is balanced around them; you can't produce faster after you received damage than you would do anyways
I do think you can make a choice to produce more workers instead of more units with Z/P but okay.
Lets just agree that Z/P can produce workers faster than terran so they can replace workers faster and that is really all he said, both players can still have an army but one loses a lot of workers for some reason, it happens a lot no need to get specific.
Part of the reason the number of Terrans is declining may be that people don't want to be the race that everyone shits on for being OP/user-friendly (whether T is actually OP or not is a matter of debate).
On March 25 2012 03:22 reincremate wrote: Part of the reason the number of Terrans is declining may be that people don't want to be the race that everyone shits on for being OP/user-friendly (whether T is actually OP or not is a matter of debate).
I dont think so you hear it like 5-10 times before you stop caring so I doubt it still affects anybody at this point. Besides you get the same comments when playing Protoss and maybe Zerg too I dunno.
Not a lot of Terrans because it is a race that requires a lot of skill at the high levels. The major obstacles at the moment I feel are vikings/ghosts, those two units are mostly DEFENSIVE units because in TvP if you don't have ghosts vs high templars you will lose, if you don't have vikings vs collosi, you will lose. Most Terrans aren't used to playing defensively and then add factors like warpgates, chronoboost, etc, makes it very hard to play TvP even if you play defensively. Also chargelots are insane vs marines/marauders, so there have to be adjustments to the Terran race itself.
Terran is fine the metagame is always shifting, T will figure something out and be on top for awhile and we will look back at QQ threads and laugh. Not to long ago protoss was unbeatable PvZ, now theres a giant thread of protoss complaining and theorycrafting on how to win again.
Sitting on a forum crying and trying to justify that your race is the hardest to play isnt going to make you any better as a player, a fair word of warning to some people in this thread.
And similar complaints can be made, and are made in every LR thread where a Terran player loses almost all of their SCVs to aggression and stays in the game solely due to mules. Plus MC is pretty good with his control
This is pretty silly, because Terran has probably the least ability to come back from worker deaths. Hatcheries and chrono'd nexus are better except for super lategame scenarios where you have a billion orbitals. (which are equivalent to 4 workers)
no, your response is silly. If you start mass droning after you lost half your economy, you are simply dead. Not to mention that droning costs a ton of money, which you get back somewhere after 1:15mins. 2mins to start some form of army production again, 3-4mins to have a defense. But yeah, in bronze it might work.
Huh? Did you just read some other post right before mine, and get confused between the two? Do you have some kind of preconceived game scenario in your head that nobody else knows about?
In Bronze, droning might work? Really?
All I said was that it's silly to complain that heavy worker deaths don't completely GG Terran, because Protoss and especially Zerg have an even greater capacity to replace workers than Terran does, until the super lategame. If a Terran and Zerg wipe out a bunch of each other's workers, the Zerg is ahead. 1 Orbital is just the equivalent of 200 minerals in the bank that you can only spend on workers, and it costs 150 to make. The primary advantage of the mining orbital is its resilience.
It isn't imbalanced.
I think any, any Terran would rather transform his CC into a Hatchery instead of an OC.
On March 25 2012 02:31 SoloZergg wrote:
As Terran or Toss, you can rebuild your workers and your defense at the same time.
EPT
im going ladder
