EPTI think any, any Terran would rather transform his CC into a Hatchery instead of an OC.
Heck, yeah. Imagine Terran units coming out at the same build rates as a Zerg, from 0 to 12 battlecruisers all at the same time.
Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 133
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TumescentPie
United States28 Posts
Heck, yeah. Imagine Terran units coming out at the same build rates as a Zerg, from 0 to 12 battlecruisers all at the same time. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On March 25 2012 02:55 XquisiteWretch wrote: I dont even know what I just read, was that english? Don't know. But those of us who are actually trying to get something meaningful out of this have just been ignoring Big J. His posts in this thread have been utter crap. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 25 2012 00:45 Solid_J wrote: This tread is just a little depressing - what we terran players need is a better mindset and some faith! There are plenty of mindset problems, and I hate to say it, but in some cases this is one of them. It's an absolutely great in-game mindset, but in the game of prodding and nagging Blizzard it does not work when some groups of people have this mindset and some do not. Honestly, player feedback does have a limited effect on Blizzard. Remember how stupid Zerg was on game release? What if the prevailing attitude had been "It's cool, we don't want to sound like babies, so let's just have faith and work through it!" I know it can be difficult to distinguish rational feedback in the huge shitstorm of " Hi I'm in Bronze and there is literally nothing I can do against a 6 pool" but we need to try. I know squawking like a baby bird isn't cool, but when Mama Bird is regurgitating her delicious buffs for everyone but you, if you keep quiet you'll eventually starve to death. Even if you were a fatass of a hatchling. | ||
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Genetic
Canada84 Posts
This season, I'll be lucky if I hold top 20, and that'll probably just because of shear number of games played. I don't know what to say. I understand at the top tier level Terrans seem to be doing okay (I think anyways?), but at my level, I am finding the game impossible. If I had another game to play, I'd quit SC2 until a better patch or HoTs comes out. As it is, Protoss and Zerg race mechanics rape Terran. My personal opinions: Zerg - Remaxes way too easily, and quickly. Additionally, broodlords have no counter. If the Zerg has good control, he can micro those infestors with lings, press forward with the broodlords, and once the tank line goes, the game is over. Protoss - Can do whatever the hell they want generally lol Can go Nexus first, and even if you scout it, unless you have a second Rax already on the way, there isn't anything you can do about it. If you decide to go CC first though, the Protoss can easily end you in a heart beat. Why is that fair? Then in the late game lol... oh man the late game. Colossi/HT/Archon with 30 food instant warp ins... LOL It makes so sense at all. None. EMP all day, again, if the Protoss isn't a retard, you won't be able to EMP all of the HT. 3 storms later plus colossi and u the warp in mechanic, and you can qq all day long. I'm tempted to start a petition to have David Kim fired from balancing SC2. Extremely shitty job. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote: One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler + Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. Didn't MC go for a 3 nexus with a tiny army and thorzain hit before storm and zealot legs? | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:31 Masq wrote: Didn't MC go for a 3 nexus with a tiny army and thorzain hit before storm and zealot legs? No, right afterword. MC had a risky 3rd nexus but had a sizeable army with good HT spread and storms waiting to eat the terran army. Thorzain did look extremely strong in straight up play, but would have lost without gosu observer senses. cloak and snipe allowed him to take down all of the lingering templar gaining energy and EMP down ones about to enter the final engagement. Adding more ghosts early is a good solution to the recent metagame, but they don't add enough to strong collosus/robo play that transitions to templar tech. Maybe we need less mm and more g/v early. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
I remember watching a Korean Terran stream and he accidentally chose Zerg and got a ZvZ in GM KR ladder. This Terran player completely demolished the GM Zerg player because he would micro in roach vs roach engagements, making concaves, splitting vs fungals, while his oppenent a moved and just kept spamming units like every zerg does. Terran pros are still up there because they play significantly better, working much harder than their opponents to achieve the same results. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote: One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler + Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... No, read his posts, they are all low quality, inflammatory, overly aggressive and just uninformed. I don't really care to discuss it. I'm not calling Yosho out because he is a very high ranked masters RANDOM player and thus, I trust that he knows more than just about every one else posting in this thread. MC also didn't get collosus and continues to try his 2 base sentry pushes despite Terran players blindly going 2 bunkers now for pushes exactly like that. MC's play has definitely degraded since he left oGs. Right now Oz and Parting impress me much more in PvT. | ||
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Yosho
585 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote: One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler + Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... You just made my favorite post too, for showing that most people that post here aren't actually reading and just skimming things then making half assed arguments. Read more carefully. I stated that MORE TOP koreans play terran. Yes they play all 3 races... I never implied they didn't. | ||
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mahi29
United States235 Posts
I have a dream today I have a dream that one day, down in worst threads of TL and Blizzard, with its vicious trolls, with Terran and Zerg players having their lips dripping with words of OP and A-move; one day right there in TL and Blizzard, Terran and Zerg players will be able to join hands with Protoss players as fellow Starcraft players I have a dream today. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
Heart won 2-1, both wins were 1-1-1. Another example of stupidity of TvP. It's not about imbalance, it's all about Terran is forced to win in early game or win in late game after earning a lead earlier. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:43 mahi29 wrote: I have a dream that protoss players will one day play a game where they will not be judged by their choice of their race but by the prowess of the player. I have a dream today I have a dream that one day, down in worst threads of TL and Blizzard, with its vicious trolls, with Terran players having their lips dripping with words of OP and A-move; one day right there in TL and Blizzard, Terran players will be able to join hands with Protoss players as fellow Starcraft players I have a dream today. It would be nice if, just once, one of these whiners could actually give a protoss player credit for playing well- but I guess in their minds that never happens. | ||
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antiRW
United Kingdom117 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:37 Zombo Joe wrote: Korean Terrans play significantly better then their Zerg and Protoss counter parts. I remember watching a Korean Terran stream and he accidentally chose Zerg and got a ZvZ in GM KR ladder. This Terran player completely demolished the GM Zerg player because he would micro in roach vs roach engagements, making concaves, splitting vs fungals, while his oppenent a moved and just kept spamming units like every zerg does. Terran pros are still up there because they play significantly better, working much harder than their opponents to achieve the same results. This claim, that apart from anecdotal evidence is completely unproven, keeps derailing this thread. Can we please stop arguing that players of race X play better than players of race Y, unless there is hard, objective evidence for it. Which would make it necessary to define what "playing better" means in the first place, of course, and how one could test it. And no, being better in one game or one particular skill is not enough. For example, do terran players have to do more multitasking than protoss players at the same level? Probably yes. But even if that was true, it would not imply that they are the overall better players. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:43 mahi29 wrote: I have a dream that protoss players will one day play a game where they will not be judged by their choice of their race but by the prowess of the player. I think it's funny that you use the I Have a Dream speech to make a racially exclusive comment. It's like you're implying that in your dream people judge Zerg and Terran by their choice of race and Protoss on the prowess of the player. RACIST! j/k | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On March 25 2012 05:43 Yosho wrote: You just made my favorite post too, for showing that most people that post here aren't actually reading and just skimming things then making half assed arguments. Read more carefully. I stated that MORE TOP koreans play terran. Yes they play all 3 races... I never implied they didn't. Let me present a scenario for you. Suppose a game has 2 races, one is the same as the other, except it does 100 more damage with every unit. Which race will have more top players? Probably the OP race. So saying that a race is better than another because it has more top players is just silly. Clearly an OP race will have more top players, but instead you are arguing that the OP races players are better because they have more top players. | ||
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mahi29
United States235 Posts
On March 25 2012 06:02 LavaLava wrote: I think it's funny that you use the I Have a Dream speech to make a racially exclusive comment. It's like you're implying that in your dream people judge Zerg and Terran by their choice of race and Protoss on the prowess of the player. RACIST! j/k Hmm... you're right. I should prolly go back and edit it.I just came to doing this after seeing the comment where someone put a video and was saying how OP Protoss was. Edit: Changed it lol | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On March 25 2012 06:05 convention wrote: Let me present a scenario for you. Suppose a game has 2 races, one is the same as the other, except it does 100 more damage with every unit. Which race will have more top players? Probably the OP race. So saying that a race is better than another because it has more top players is just silly. Clearly an OP race will have more top players, but instead you are arguing that the OP races players are better because they have more top players. And that scenario doesn't apply because the races do not play the same. Players have race preferences based on play style or other factors (T being popular in Korea BW, Boxer etc.). | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On March 25 2012 06:24 oxxo wrote: And that scenario doesn't apply because the races do not play the same. Players have race preferences based on play style or other factors (T being popular in Korea BW, Boxer etc.). The scenario does apply to what Yosho was saying: When it comes down to it, most of the korean terrans are SEVERALLY BETTER then the other koreans at their race. Terran isn't winning because it's balanced. They are winning because they OUT PLAY their opponent every game. They are just that much better. | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.). How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's. So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons. What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight. 1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc.. 2. Press stim 3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash. 4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings. Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts. You should never lose a fight when: - Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's) - You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily. | ||
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